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No mention of a son William, possible father to Letitia/Annie b 1882?

I'm waiting for LMA to get back to me re finding Court info for the William Brogan in Wandsworth and to find out if they have prisoner records for Wandsworth. As far as i can see this is the only way to find out if this is my WB.
The "other" WB at the old Bailey, if the story about Annie being his daughter is true, can only be my William B if Annie was his daughter by someone other than Elizabeth 2 years before they married, if she was born in 1882 - he was in Scotland for the 1881 Census.
Any ideas????

Possible Joseph.

1851 census transcription details for: 47, Phoenix Street, Christchurch, Tower Hamlets
National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107 Piece: 1543 Folio: 277 Page: 18

Reg. District: Whitechapel Sub District: Spitalfields
Parish: Christchurch Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets
Address: 47, Phoenix Street, Christchurch, Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
BARRELL, William Head Married M 54 1797 Marine Store Dealer
Bethnal Green
BARRELL, Mary Wife Married F 40 1811
St Andrews Holborn
BARRELL, Emma Daughter Unmarried F 14 1837 House Haw Carder
Spitalfields
BARRELL, Maria Daughter Unmarried F 15 1836 House Haw Carder
Spitalfields
BARRELL, Joseph Son Unmarried M 10 1841 Errand Boy
Spitalfields
BARRELL, Richard Son Unmarried M 9 1842 Scholar
Spitalfields
BARRELL, John Son Unmarried M 1 1850
Spitalfields

This is definitely a difficult one. I must admit I'm stumped. For the record, here is the marriage Moody found for you.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Patterson
Name: Mary Patterson of 33 Betts Street
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Spouse Name: Joseph Barrill, bricklayer of 60 Shop? Street
Spouse Age: 40
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 03 Jan 1881
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Joseph Patterson, dock labourer
Spouse Father Name: William Barrill, salvage ??

Witnesses were Joseph Abeney?, who seemed to be a witness at a few weddings, and Mary Ann Barrell.

I actually found the Fulham Poor House record that showed the 2 eldest boys - in April 1891. The record showed that William was not living with Elizabeth - she was at a c/o address in Brixton, her 1 month old daughter being fostered almost from birth.
If I can find no record of William Brogan in a Poor house in April 1891, it is getting ever liklier that he is the William Brogan in Wandsworth Prison when 1891 Census was taken. where else could he be?

Marriages Mar 1881
BARRELL Joseph Bethnal Green 1c 416
Patterson Mary Bethnal Green 1c 416

I have obtained Letitia Barrell's Birth Cert - what is really strange is that her father is named as Joseph Barrell, not William Barrell as on her marriage cert!!
There is no Joseph that I can see on any of the Census info for the Barrell household (nor any William).
Any ideas?

I have sent for Letitia Barrells birth cert today so hope something comes from it - could be interesting. My grandchildren enjoy books calles "Where's Wally?". what about "Where's William ?".

Back to my original thread - where was William Brogan after his 1884 wedding, why is he on no Census, why is there no record of him anywhere, either alive or dead? If he was in a different Poor House to his children and Elizabeth, would he not appear on a Census?

So....................The Census' for Elizabeth Brogan are the correct ones! Where did William (husband) hide himself at census time?

Whatever next? I have just received the copy of William Thomas Brogan's birth cert and guess who his mother was? Elizabeth Mary Brogan (nee Ord), father William Brogan , labourer. Well done Moody Blue for the information that led me to get the birth cert.

has anyone been able to find the birth of this Annie Brogan/Barrell that her father tried to kill? I've looked but cannot find anything not even an entry on the census!

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Letitia Barrell
Name: Letitia Barrell
Year of Registration: 1882
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 378

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Letitia Barrell
Name: Letitia Barrell
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Spouse Name: George Downs
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 16 Mar 1902
Parish: St Paul, Dock Street
County: London
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Barrell ( deceased labour)
Spouse Father Name: Alfred Downs

Do you have the death of Elizabeth Mary Brogan nee Ord?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Elizabeth M Brogan
Name: Elizabeth M Brogan
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 84
Registration district: Uxbridge
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5f
Page: 441


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Elizabeth Brogan
Name: Elizabeth Brogan
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 84
Registration district: Uxbridge
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5f
Page: 441


If so, who registered the death?

1 1856 BROGAN WILLIAM M SPRINGBURN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/02 0152
this one above is your ancestor and he too was born in a Poor House 22 May 1856( I have the image if you would like it) His father listed as Printer


2 1856 BROGAN WILLIAM M OLD MONKLAND (MIDDLE DISTRICT) /LANARK 652/02 0684

maybe this is the other one?
born 29 Oct 1856 father Michael Brogan , Collier, mother Mary Brogan nee Brown

Re Herbert Brogan b 1887 and William Brogan b 1885 they are both in the same poorhouse, Fulham Union Infirmary, in the 1891 census. On the original image, Herbert is on page 9 and William is on page 12. To maybe clarify if the William in the 1911 census is the same person and in turn prove the census' for Elizabeth Brogan, it may be beneficial to purchase the birth certificate of William.

I recently visited the London archives in Northampton street, London, about 10mins walk from Farringdon tube station. I found all sorts of interesting work house records for Ashford workhouse including admissions and discharge register, medical records and punishment books!! Some things made me smile, others brought a tear to my eye. Some records are on microfiche and others are the actual books that the matrons and masters wrote in. I am pretty sure that they have all of the london workhouse records but worth a telephone call to them in advance - tel 0207 3323820 the staff will check what they have before you travel and they are so helpful. take some small change so you can photo copy records and you are only allowed to use pencil not pen whilst making notes. The records i viewed dated back to 1856 so you should find details of your relative. Good luck...

It is, but can't be the same as the William Brogan in prison for attempting to murder his 9 year old daughter because his only daughter was only about 10 months old in 1891 and adopted at birth!

Looking at the 1901 census for possibly Elizabeth, I noticed the name of the road and the area.
In your previous post, we thought that maybe William had been put into an asylum. Look at this coincidence.


Effra Hall (Lunatic Asylum), Brixton, LAMBETH

Birth for William.

WILLIAM BROGAN Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
22 MAY 1856 Springburn, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: WILLIAM BROGAN Family
Mother: ROSANNE MARTIN

and a submitted entry.


HUSBAND
William Brogan Pedigree

Birth: 1830 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Christening:
Marriage: 27 MAY 1855 Lennoxtown, Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Death:
Burial:



Father: Thomas Brogan Family
Mother: Letitia Campbell
Wife

Rosina Martin Pedigree

Birth: 1838 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Marriage: 27 MAY 1855 Lennoxtown, Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Death:
Burial:



Father: Cornelius Martin Family
Mother: Margaret Mc Queen
Children
1. William Brogan Pedigree
Male


Birth: 1857 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

2. Thomas Brogan Pedigree
Male


Birth: 1859 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

3. Unavailable Pedigree