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Not sure about her being Russian - after all Mary Ellen is such an English name. Of course, she could have anglized it from Maria Helena!

Wonder if she reverted to her mother's maiden name?

Hi Potty...yes I did..the H Brierley is my grandad Harold(who is listed as Arnold on the 1901.He joined up in 1911..What caused me confusion at one point was that James William Brierleys parents(James Brierley and Louisa Martha) had a son Harold in 1891 and James William and Mary Ellen had Harold in 1892..
I have 3 lots of service records for Harold Brierley and service records for an underage James William jnr in the army and also the one for James William snr that you have found...such a shame that there isnt more pages but big thanks to you for looking...
After 8 Greystone Place they lived at no 2 and then 27 Baker St,Kirkstall road Leeds...

Do you think that Mary Ellen was Russian?..I have tried all sorts of ways to spell her name..on the births she is either Crumby or Crumby...x

Sorry, Angela, doesn't look as if I have found anything new for you.

I wonder if the H Brierley mentioned in the Army Record is the son Harold?

Yes that is them on the 1911 in Leeds...the family say that Elsie was born in Manchester and not Leeds but was not registered till they came to Leeds...James William jnr was born in Manchester but the births of the other children were all in the workhouse at Prestwich.I found James William in the Sudan war 1896-98 and then in the Boer war 1899 but was a casualty at Ladysmith in 1900.I also found him on the electoral roll in Leeds but he dissappears in about 1914...Mary Ellen and James Williams last child Herbert was born in 1913 in Leeds.


I have to take mum to the wound clinic and then her daily walk..after that hubby will be ringing the bell for my time! Will be back to check about 5-30..hope you have found something good Potty and thank you Marieceleste for your input..much appreciated...x

Thank you MarieCeleste - that confirms the other item I found.

Angela, did you know that James had been in the army?

There is very brief record for him on Ancestry, 4 pages: the Attestation sheet, 2 copies of the Description sheet and an "Inside Sheet" which has two entries - one detailing a request for his address from a Pte H Brierley, Lancashire Fusiliers and the other detailing the reply sent giving James Brierleys address as 8 Greystone Place, Kirkstall Rd, Leeds.

The first entry is dated 30/9/1911 and the second 3/10/1911. James appears to have been an Army Pensioner.

James joined the Yorks and Lancaster Regiment in 1893. His Regimental No was 4407.

There are 4 James Brierley Army Records on find my past but I don't have credits to view.

BRIERLEY, James William Head Married 20 years M 40 1871 Hawker Greengrocers Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, Mary Ellen Wife Married 20 years F 39 1872 Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, James William Son M 11 1900 School Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, Nellie Daughter F 9 1902 Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, Lousia Daughter F 7 1904 Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, Alice Daughter F 5 1906 Lancs Manchester All Souls
BRIERLEY, Elsie Daughter F 2 1909 Leeds St Simon

RG number: RG14
Piece: 27058
Reference: RG14PN27058 RG78PN1549 RD500 SD4 ED5 SN151

Registration District: Leeds
Sub District: Kirkstall
Enumeration District: 5
Parish: Leeds

Address: 8 Greystone Place Leeds
County: Yorkshire (West riding)

I think I have found them in 1911 - living in Leeds. I wonder if anybody with full access could look up the full address because I may have found something else.

Cheers Potty...yes,1/4 ton of solid concrete on his foot and to top it all he has had PINK plaster put on for our grandaughter!

Anyway,thanks for what you have found so far...this is another mystery for me to try and sort...I have found her death but not birth...I have found husband James William`s birth but cant find his death!!

Any suggestions what to do now by any chance?....x

I have found the witnesses to the marriage, but again no help with Mary Ellen. They are living at 16 Harding Street, so across the road from James:

1891 England Census
about Joseph Salt
Name: Joseph Salt
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Maria Salt
Gender: Male
Where born: Macclesfield, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Souls
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
ED, institution, or vessel: 45
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Salt 25
Maria Salt 26
Charlotte Salt 5
Emily Marie Salt 3
Louisa Mary Salt 2
Charles Salt 18

Looks like Maria's maiden name was Ruddock:

Marriages Jun 1885 (>99%)

Cochrane Hannah Prestwich 8d 466
Cochrane Hannay Prestwich 8d 466
Craven William Prestwich 8d 466
RUDDOCK Maria Prestwich 8d 466
Salt Joseph Prestwich 8d 466

Sorry to hear about your mother and husband - hope they are both up and about soon (7 bones - he doesn't do things by halves, does he!).

These are the inhabitants of 3 Boudary St in 1891 - not much help I am afraid (I think the name on the image is Rourke):

1891 England Census
about Patrick Rowske
Name: Patrick Rowske
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen Rowske
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Newton
Ecclesiastical parish: Newton St Mark
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Prestwich
Sub-registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Patrick Rowske 29
Ellen Rowske 27
Edward Rowske 9
John Frances Rowske 7
William Rowske 1

Fannybygaslight...I asked my cousin and she said that it was thought Irish/Liverpudlian or Scottish...in other words...she had an accent!.
I cant understand why I cant find her on the 1891..that census was taken on the 5th April and they married in June..surely she would have been in the area.....
Just to say a big thank you for helping.I am stuck getting on here with looking after mum and hubby so pleaase dont think I am ignoring anyone..I will get on eventually.....x

That street in Manchester was heavily populated by Russian people in 1891.
Just a thought as to maybe the accent was Russian and she altered her name to sound more English ?

But she was in Boundary Street Prestwich when she married ,not Manchester,so maybe not as I was searching wrong area

I have found her on the 1911,living in Yorkshire.James William was in the army in the Yorks and Lancashire regiment.It states born Manchester for her on there as well...

Hi all..sorry again but got mum convalescing after open heart surgery and now hubby has fractured his foot in 7 places...I dont know if Im coming or going..anyway,here is the info...

Marraige June 27 1891,Parish Church,St Marks,Newton Heath
James William Brierley age 21,bachelor,mechanic,3 Boundary St,father James Brierley,tin plate worker...

Mary Ellen Crumby,age 21,spinster,no occupation, Boundary St,father Hugh Crumby,deceased,labourer...

Witnesses Joseph Salt and Maria Salt

Like yourselves I could only find the Staffordshire Crumbys...I couldnt find Mary Ellen on the 1891 census either .I thought she mwould have been in the Manchester area but no joy..thanks to you all for helping...

No Crombie or Crumbie births at all coming up for Ireland from 1854 to 1894.

The only English birth for a Mary Ellen at the right times is in Leek in Staffordshire. Her father was John. There is a Mary Jane (also born Leek) whose father is Hugh.

Angela, please can you give all the details from the marriage cert?

I have to go out,but I must say I am getting nowhere.
I have searched SP and Pilot.familysearch for birth,but found nothing.

I think this is James in 1891 - occupation Iron Turner, living at 15 Harding Street:

1891 England Census
about James William Brierley
Name: James William Brierley
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Brierley
Mother's name: Louisa Martha Brierley
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester

Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Souls
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
ED, institution, or vessel: 50
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Brierley 46
Louisa Martha Brierley 46
James William Brierley 20
Elizabeth Jane Brierley 18
Lillian Brierley 12
Herbert Brierley 10
Ernest Brierley 8
Arnold Brierley 2 Weeks

James is shown as Single; there is what looks 0 21/8 in front of his occupation. No idea what that means!

Thank you Potty.
For ref then

BRIERLEY, James W Head Married M 29 1872 Iron Turner Manchester Lancashire
BRIERLEY, Mary E Wife Married F 28 1873 Manchester Lancashire
BRIERLEY, Harold Son M 9 1892
Manchester Lancashire
BRIERLEY, James W Son M 1 1900
Manchester Lancashire

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
Ancoats Enumeration District:
36 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Manchester All Soul's

Civil Parish:
Manchester Municipal Borough:
Address:
4, Washington Street, Manchester County:
Lancashire

1901 shows James W as born Manchester; an Iron Turner.

Also give Mary's YOB as 1873

I cant even find her on Census..!
When and where does James William say he was born,or can you add a census you have her on please?
There is this one on 1891,but I dont think its her.



Name: Mary Brierley
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William Brierley
Gender: Female
Where born: N
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Simon
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Salford

Name Age
William Brierley 23
Mary Brierley 21