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The photographs - thanks. I do know Cramlington. Back in the days when I worked as a market researcher (when we walked the streets with clipboards before it all went on line) I seemed to be sent to Cramlington almost every week!

mac - it is possible. There is a reference in the 1911 census to a child who has died, and we know that Catherine and any other children died in the flu epidemic at the end of World War I. I have a probable death registration death date for Catherine in 1918 though I haven't yet sent for the certificate, but couldn't find any Rutherford children's deaths registered about that time - and no-one in the family seems to have any details of the dobs and sexes, or even the number, they are just focused on the fact that my father in law was brought up as an only child just by his father.

mgnv - thanks - I'll have a look at the site - I think I have it bookmarked, someone was trying to show me where we bought a dog in 1961!
At that date all the southeast Northumberland registrations are indexed as Tynemouth - covering a huge number of towns and villages in the censuses of where people think they were born!

Edit by "that date" i mean 1905 not 1961!

Since this m.cert will be from the registrar's register, not the church's, the W must refer to where the registrar is from.

There's a couple of pics of interest at:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NZ2774

Did your father-in-law have a younger sister called Mary by any chance?

The certificate shows him marrying Katherine McNally

I'm not quite understanding this sorry probably being thick, but on the certificate you got does it show James marrying Minnie Rolland or Katherine McNally?

Thanks - I should say that I did some time ago also pick up James the butcher, and just as we are warned not to do assumed he was the oneand started putting him and his relations into my tree - but luckily in a further follow up of some of his relations I discovered (by being given access to another tree), that they were a completely different family. I see I haven't access to that false trail tree any more.

The child John on the 1911 census is my father-in-law. The James 1911 married to Minnie isn't him - his wife was definitely Catherine and he filled in the 1911 census form himself - indeed the first real interest from my OH was when I showed him the 1911 census form and he said "that's my grandfather's writing!". And our James' father, also James, had the Post office and village shop in Cramlington.

The James on the certificate I had is a coal miner, son of John a deceased merchant seaman, which sounds like yours married to Minnie, but here he' s definitely married to Katherine McNally could be a nickname or second name I suppose.

I hadn't found our James mother and brother in 1911, I hadn't looked, will do so next! thanks.

Many thanks for your interest, anyway

Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth,
Is there any chance you have the wrong family, it's strange that James was recorded born Cramlington throught the census returns, then in 1911 as born Old Hartley? There is another James Rutherford on the 1901 census of the same age, but born Old Hartley - see below:

James Rutherford
Relation to Head of Family Lodger
Age Last Birthday 24
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Pork Butcher
Employment Status
Condition as to Marriage Single
Where Born Northumberland Old Hartley
Address 10 Avenue Terr
Civil Parish Seaton Delaval
Rural District Tynemouth
Town or Village or Hamlet Seaton Delaval
Ecclesiastical Parish Seghill
Parliamentary Borough or Division Wansbeck
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District
Administrative County Northumberland

I see the child John on the 1911 census is born Seaton Delaval?

Your James's mother and brother are on the 1911 census at 68 Campbell Street, a public house. Robert is a licenced victullar. There is also a James Rutherford on the 1911 census with Minnie, he is a barman.

Don't know if any of this is relevant but may be worth checking - does this occupation correspond to the marriage certificate?

Added: This James's father was John, a seaman, born Scotland according to the 1871 census, his father had died by the 1881 census.

Good luck
Mac

St. John the Baptists Catholic Chapel, Annitsford, Weetslade - these are all now very much part of Cramlington where the bride lived.

Re the W: Where did the marriage occur?

I can't see a particular W except that on the accompanying copy of the application it describes the Certificate Type as Standatd E/W Marriage w GRO. I don't know how to interpret that!

I have tried the family search records including the new beta ones, but not specifically the bishops' transcripts. I must try that - if they are not indexed yet it does mean sitting there turning over page after page so I must find a time when I can do it patiently! well worth it if you in fact get a result. The unindexed ones I have combed through in the past (unsuccessfully) for other pre-1837 Rutherfords were I think prepared by Durham University.

Elizabeth - thanks for the update. What a bummer, eh
Incidentally, what did the W stand for in the local rego ref?

It's abt 50 y too late, but if you get back further, it's worth checking out the Durham BTs at:
https://beta.familysearch.org/s/collection/list#page=1®ion=EUROPE

There's several local (C of E) parishes there - Cramlington, Earsdon, Longbenton, Tynemouth, Wallsend, etc

Just as well I didn't add anything - I have just received the marriage certificate and it is not my husband's grandfather! Wrong occupation, wrong name and occupation of father, right district, even getting married in the church his father used to go to! I will hang on to the certificate, as there are extended cousins living in the area and James was a popular family name, and I may be able to tie it in with one of them. Thank you all anyway

mgnv - thanks - I have sent for the certificate, but the combination of snow and Christmas may hold it up a bit, so I shall have to use willpower not to fillin all the potential new information I have!

I would guess the W in the local census ref referred to the registrar's register for some subdistrict beginning with W - Wallsend & Whitley spring to mind.
In this case, it would be either a rego office marr, or one the registrar attended (such as an RC marr) - you''ll need the cert to tell (well, maybe not, but it's by far the least bother).

mgnv - Thanks - I thought I'd posted a reply to you but it isn't there - maybe I didn't click submit!

I did know the need for civil registration (we had the local registrar witness for our marriage) but I really was grasping at straws - I had had such difficulty in tracking down James' marriage that getting married but not getting the registrar records seemed to be a possibility., However, it looks as if the new Marriage Match has found them.

We knew my husband's grandfather was a convert but no-one knew when - very possibly on marriage - I look forward to seeing from the marriage certificate where they were married!

I still find it strange that my searches, which included those for just James' name, didn't reveal the marriage as I did include several goes on the various sites with his name alone.

Thanks for the useful northeas research address - have added it to favourites as I have plenty of north-east relatives to check on!

You can check out local RO indices at:
http://www.northeastbmd.org.uk/

In particular, a search at:
http://www.northtyneside.gov.uk/marriage-register.shtml

McNALLY, Katherine
RUTHERFORD, James
Marriage date: 1905
Register Book, Entry Number: W78, 22


Re "Would it have been possible (or legal) in the 1900s to be married in a Catholic church and not have it on record in the civil registers? "

Not really - it was illegal for the priest. There were really two ways to go.

Firstly, if the church was an approved building for marriages, then the local registrar would attend the ceremony. The couple would sign his register to conclude the civil side of the marriage. There was some proscription on the form of the religious ceremony. This was the status of all non-conformist marrs (excl jews, quakers) pre 1898, but after 1898 other non-conformist were allowed to keep their own official registers. RCs only got to keep official registers 1980-ish.

The other way to go was first have the official marriage in a rego office or by a C of E priest. Then have a second religious ceremony at an RC church, usually the same day. The RO marr needn't have taken place in the same rego district as the church.

There is one side-effect here. Since the RC church register isn't an official one (pre-1980), it really can say anything. I've seen one RC marr entry where the priest later added their first 2 kids details, then "1906 - moved to Bradford".

Thank you Janice - this will be a great help.

1881
Frank Mc Nally
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Mc Nally
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Cramlington
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Street address: Brick Yard
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: General Labourer
Registration district: Tynemouth
Sub-registration district: Blyth

Frank Mc Nally 37
Mary Mc Nally 34
Mary Jane Mc Nally 13
Frank Mc Nally 9
Aurther Mc Nally 5
Elizabeth Ann Mc Nally 2

1891?

Cath McNally
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Frank McNally
Mother's name: Mary McNally
Gender: Female
Where born: Cramlington, Northumberland, England

Civil Parish: Cramlington
Ecclesiastical parish: Cramlington
Town: Cramlington Colliery
County/Island: Northumberland
Registration district: Tynemouth
Sub-registration district: Earsdon

Frank McNally 48
Mary McNally 48
Frk McNally 20
Arthur McNally 15
Eliz Ann McNally 12
Cath McNally 7
Margt McNally 9
John McNally 5
James McNally 1