Find Ancestors

OK so I have the marriage certificate for John Richard Hartley to Sarah Rebecca Whitehouse. It is definitely him. Father William Hartley Police Constable, address Bowling Park Lodge Bowling - his occupation is given as scavenger! And his age is 21 years old..which I reckon was a lie just to be able to marry? He is consistently born in 1866/7 so in April 1885 he was only just 18.

Sarah Rebecca also gives her age as 21 :-)

Her father was Thomas Whitehouse (deceased) and her address was 10 Diamonds Street Bradford.

Witnesses William Wallace and Lawrence Walker.

Jude

Just had a second opinion about the 1901 census with John R Hartley and Clara,they think it says Iron-Broker Agent.
it is in the same area as his dad.
1911 also looks like Metal Broker.

Only thing I can't find is Clara's marriage or where she is in 1911,but like you said they may have never married.

Maryb

Can find only one marriage that might be it Clara Swallow in Bramley - found it on West Yorks and it is to John Hartley but his father is Joseph and he is a miner born Lofthouse

I wonder if it is John Richard...perhaps he was still married to Sarah Rebecca and so Clara "assumed" wifehood as well :-)

Jude

Mary how true!

Yes I am sure they are the family...the find of "Nicholson" I think is the key. I have managed to find christening records that match the four children. And one of the addresses they lived is the Policeman's Lodge Bowling Park (in 1891) which is certainly near to - if not the same building - as Albert was born in (Park Lodge).

I think John Richard is to remain an enigma - assuming it is he that marries Sarah Rebecca Whitehouse (and I may well invest in this certificate at some point) then I think the most likely scenario is that he wasn't free to marry Sarah Ann so she made up the marriage, registered the child as his and then went home to her mother. And at a decent point in time she was "widowed". But where is Sarah Rebecca all this while?

And why oh why can't we find him in 1901?

The one nagging thing though is how Sarah Ann born and bred in Worcestershire came to meet a West Yorkshireman, unless as I surmised his job as a carter took him to the Midlands.

Have searched for something in the probate records but to no avail (none of them appear to have left anything)

Jude

Can you take a look at this.
1911 census for John r hartley with parents says he is a Metal Broiler,on looking at original to me it looks like Metal Goodes or broker.

1901 Bradford East D 3 > 18
36,Great Cross Street.
John R Hartley 34 born Bradford could it read Iron -Broker Agent
Clara wife 29 born leeds.

1901 Bradford East D11. 21
12 Sandford Road
His parents William and Hannah here.

Maryb.

Well I have had another look for him in 1901 and nothing.
If we have the correct John Richard 1866 son of William and Hannah,which I think is correct.
Then he had siblings Mary Ann 1863 married Harry Holden 30/1/1900 dad William a Policeman.
Ernest 1869 married 25/2/1901 Fanny Moody dad William Hartley a Policeman
Frederick William 20/8/1919 Alice Dean dad William a Policeman doesn't say he was deceased.
On none of these marriages is John Richard a witness.
Its so annoying that all the above marriages are available to view,but not John Richard's.

I wonder of the death record for John Richard 1926 would give any new leads??
Shame he didn't leave a will!!

Maryb.

no luck at the moment and have got to go and set up our caravan for season now ,so have book marked the thread and will look again asap.

Jan brilliant! Bit economical with her age but think that must be her!

Seeing as you are on fire this morning :-) have a go at finding John Richard Hartley in 1901 :-)

He's not with parents

Jude

just for info the Foster's in 1911




1911 census transcription details for: 9 Priory Road Edgbaston

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN17912 RG78PN1093 RD383 SD3 ED2 SN152


Reg. District: Kings Norton Sub District: Edgbaston
Parish: Edgbaston Enum. District: 2
Address: 9 Priory Road Edgbaston
County: Worcestershire

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
FOSTER, Tildasley Norris Head Married M 56 1855 Barrister At Law Uncertain Bromsgrove Worcester
FOSTER, Eliza Norris Wife Married F 56 1855 None Birmingham
JORDAN, Marion Christina Niece Single F 32 1879 Lady Nurse Tackbrook Warwick
UPTON, Miriam Servant Widow F 45 1866 Cook Bilston Staffs

1911?




1911 census transcription details for: Crow Keys Jamaica Row Birmingham

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN18131 RG78PN1098 RD384 SD4 ED28 SN128


Reg. District: Birmingham Sub District: St Martin
Parish: Birmingham Enum. District: 28
Address: Crow Keys Jamaica Row Birmingham
County: Warwickshire

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
ANNIS, Elijah Henry Head Married M 37 1874 Publican Manager Birmingham Warwickshire
ANNIS, Eliza Ann Wife Married F 39 1872 Assisting In The Business Staffordshire
ANNIS, Norman Shadrock Son M 12 1899 School Birmingham Warwickshire
ANNIS, Edith Daughter F 10 1901 School Birmingham Warwickshire
ANNIS, Frederick Henry Son M 8 1903 School Birmingham Warwickshire
ANNIS, Doris Elizabeth Daughter F 5 1906 School Cradley Heath Staff
ANNIS, Hilda Gertrude Daughter F 3 1908 Cradley Heath Staff
HENCE, Richard Visitor Widower M 47 1864 Butcher Birmingham Warwickshire
HENCE, Stephen Visitor M 10 1901 School Aston Warwickshire
HARRIS, Arthur Servant Single M 22 1889 Barman Shirley Warwickshire
HEPKISS, Alice Servant Single F 27 1884 Barman Birmingham Warwickshire
PERRY, Sarah Servant Single F 17 1894 Servant Domestic Cradley Heath Staff
HARTLEY, Sarah Servant Widow F 47 1864 Servant Domestic Stourport Worcestershire

The death for Sarah Ann looks good too - she was born in 1859. and I was fairly sure that she had come home for good. In 1891 she is with her mum and in 1901 in service as a cook in Edgbaston. I couldn't see any reason why she would return to Bradford as I am fairly sure she left soon after Albert's birth and never returned. I reckon they were never married and she only said they were to have John Richard's name on the certificate. I've not managed to spot her in 1911 though.

In 1901 she is with an Eliza Barnett (Head) and a visitor Norris T Foster. I think on FMP they are married in 1911 and she is transcribed as Eliza Norris Foster and him as something very strange Norris Foster! Whether Sarah is still with them I have not been able to see.

Jan thanks for both of these. The Bromsgrove marriage saves me splashing out nearly £10 only to find it was not what I was looking for!

Yeah the death looks spot on. He was born 21 October 1866

Jude

wonder if Sarah A stayed in Warwickshire?
Civil Registration event: Death

Name: HARTLEY, Sarah A
Registration district: Birmingham South
County: Warwickshire
Year of registration: 1926
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death: 65
Volume no: 6D
Page no: 10

any good?
Civil Registration event: Death
Print Close
Name: HARTLEY, John R
Registration district: Bradford
County: Yorkshire
Year of registration: 1926
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 59
Volume no: 9B
Page no: 223

FMP shows this

Name: HARRIS, George Emmanuel
Registration district: Bromsgrove
County: Worcestershire
Year of registration: 1887
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6C
Page no: 629
MarriageFinder: George Emmanuel Harris married one of the following people:

COX, Sarah Ann
HICKS, Mary Ann
EDKINS, Frederick William

Mary thanks...

All clutching at straws anyway as none of this explains why John Hartley is never with any wife at any census that I have found him...or why Sarah Ann described herself as widowed in 1901 when I have have found him alive and kicking and stated as married in 1911 ( a marriage that fits with the 1885 one to Sarah Whitehouse)....so many mysteries and unanswered questions.

For instance, in 1911 John R Hartley states married 25 years two children both living....so the marriage is the one to Sarah Rebecca (by timing). Do the two children include Albert Nicholson or not? :-S

I've tried Ancestry and FreeBMD to find missing male with no luck as yet.

Maryb.

Some leaps of faith going on here....I have found a marriage in Bromsgrove Worcestershire and there is a person missing....


Marriages Dec 1887 (>99%)
COX Sarah Ann Bromsgrove 6c 629
Edkins Frederick William Bromsgrove 6c 629
Hicks Mary Ann Bromsgrove 6c 629

And I can find a birth in Halifax for A Sarah Whitehouse that fits with a death in Bradford in June 1886 for A Sarah Hartley...so although stretching the imagination somewhat the missing person could be John Hartley.

And I can find Frederick W and Mary Edkins living in Dehli New York in 1900 - both born in England - right year for a birth for him (from 1881 census) of 1862...ONLY spanner is that they have been married 11 years i.e. 1889 (given emigration was 1887 that means they married there).

Short of speculating some dosh on Sarah Ann Cox's marriage certificate is there any way of further sleuthing first?

Jude

Mary thanks.

I haven't quite worked out how Sarah Ann from Stourport could link up with John Richard from Bradford and have a child there. And I wasn't comfortable with Sarah Rebecca from West Brom doing same. Even if his job as a carter took him to the Midlands, surely any marriage would be there not in Bradford?

I am still confident that my Sarah Ann didn't marry and that she lied on the registration of Albert. And I never find them together so I do wonder if she ever returned to Bradford to come home to her mother in 1891. I just wonder why she suddenly stated she was widowed when we now know she wasn't?

Jude

Bradford registration district 1871
7,Pen Street Bowling Ref RG 4447.

So it does look like Pen St was in Bowling.
On 1901 Bowling Bradford census it shows Penn St district 8 > 22
Only numbers are 2-12 and 9-11.

Bowling Park Drive was formerley New Hey Road, don't know when it changed though.

1891 Bowling St Bartholomews district 9 > 26 New Hey Road.
Numbers 9/11/4 Penn Street D8 > 23.

All this area is on wakefield road bowling bradford.

The Sarah Rebecca Whithouse born 1866 West Brom is still with mum on 1891 census and single!

Maryb