Find Ancestors

chrissiex you have been wonderful and your effort is more than appreciated

If you read the very first post this started with Eric Smith's family in AUS. His wife Mildred is my geat aunt now very ill has forgotten all the bad parts of her life and talking about England and what she remembered. Born 1914 they are not sure how long she will live.

The family have until now been completely isolated from any family - like they had no roots. Nobody could asked any questions because they were told it is not their business..

I started telling them all the secrets of Mildred's parents and siblings - sent all the certs and photos including one of her father, I 've collected over the past 5 years years. When I explained how I was related and gave my mums name. Mildred told her daughter my mum was chief bridesmaid at her wedding.

Her daughter used to talk to her dad Eric and gran Ceilia who told her bits but what she was told couldn't ask her mum. Now it has opened up she has been asking her mum and I'm getting bits gradually by email. I'm putting names to families. Also the addresses seem to have some meaning to Mildred. I actually live in Islington so can easlly follow the trail.

The Smith side they know nothing about except a few names but what they have now told me about George Smith the father of Eric. He had a good job but he used to disappear for months gambling. Each time he came home he got Celia pregnant and left again.

The addresses in Hackey/Shoreditch are near the big Jewish quarter in Hackney. He apparently was always in trouble with the law and was stabbed in an alley. Nobody is quite sure of the date. Celia destitute in UK went to AUS but was treated very badly by Mildred - she seems to have forgotten all that.
Stan the other son was also a gambler - he lived with his mum but used to vanish in AUS for months so the AUS authorities gave her a flat and and a pension to help her.
I wasn't even sure about the Finch part of the family until I got Eric's birth cert his DOB I got from the ships manifest to AUS.
It was only after I sent the cert to AUS Mildred remembered.

It is not that I'm being evasive but the info is coming to me slowly.
You can't rush an old lady born 1914 - the encouraging thing is that the nurses looking after her say it has renewed her and are taking notes as well.

Don't want to shock her to much but just last night but her brother's daughter and grandaughter contacted me. A very kind man told me they were on his Chritmas list as a distant relation of his wife and wrote to them sending all my emails.

Also another problem I found that some people on GR & Ancestry had mixed up names and included a family not connected in any way. IGI was able to prove it for me so I have informed them all giving them the details

I'm trying to do this step by step but everywhere there are complications

Now don't answer this message I'll comment in a seperate post.
:-D

oh Susanne you keep saying things that suggest you know things you aren't telling us, and that tell us you knew things you didn't tell us ... this gets very frustrating

we are following along 'finding' all the things you already know ............. you had that info about his father, you knew that 'Isaac' was not George Smith's real middle name ... or did I just miss this somewhere in the thread ?

'Apparently he was stabbed to death'

so this is from family knowledge but they did not hear anything about approximately when it was ?

I have a gambler in my tree, an in-law of one of my ancestors ... he was originally wealthy and went bankrupt as a result of gambling ... the bankruptcy is reported in the London Gazette, I wonder whether this might be the case for George Smith

to spare you the exercise ...

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24934/pages/591
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24827/pages/2296
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26519/pages/3278
are all about a George Isaac Smith farmer in Suffolk, 1881 and 1894

to search for George William Smith ( presumably he would appear by his correct name ) would be more of an undertaking but you might want to try

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

I searched for the phrase 'george william smith' and word 'bankruptcy' and got 59 results, you could narrow by date

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/all=bankruptcy;exact=george+william+smith/start=1

if he was murdered might there have been an inquest ? I'm not familiar with that kind of search, maybe someone else can help

it is mildly interesting that there is no birth record for father GIS, 1881 says born c1856 St Andrews

but actually I imagine this is him in 1871

Name: George I Smith
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William W Smith
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Martock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Registration district: Islington

William W Smith 39 public accountant born Wells Somerset
Sarah Smith 45 born Martock
Valdiel I Smith 16 accountant's clerk born Martock
George I Smith 14
Archer W Smith 5

Marriages Dec 1880
SMITH Valdiel Izaak Islington 1b 520

but no birth for him either ... no birth for 'Valdiel I' anything ... no other Valdiel anything in any bmd record ever ... what is 'Valdiel' anyhow ? possibly they really were Jewish and had changed some names ? between the birth of George and the birth of Archer ?

Births Mar 1866
SMITH Archer W Islington 1b 220


oh aha, 1861

Name: Valdiel J Smith
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Stepson
Gender: Male
Where born: Martock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Martock
County/Island: Somerset
Registration district: Yeovil

John Isaac 61 boot maker
John Isaac 37 unmarried boot closer
Sarah Smith 35 married daughter, commercial clerk[?]
Valdiel J Smith 6
( all born Martock )

... but George should be in that household too, 2 years younger than Valdiel, and why was Valdiel a stepson, born after the marriage ...

Marriages Jun 1854
ISAAC Sarah Yeovil 5c 918
SMITH William Yeovil 5c 918

Births Jun 1855
Smith Valaiel Izaak Yeovil 5c 530
( there's a transcription error in the registration details )

the only George Isaac in the time and place

Births Mar 1857
Hayward George Isaac Yeovil 5c 537

no wait he was George William ... several born Yeovil 1856-57, no surname that is familiar


so ... also in 1861

Name: George J Smith ... image says George I not J
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Rarlock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Islington

William Smith 28 married born Wells commercial clerk, bookseller & news agent
George J Smith 4
Sarah E Smith 17 sister
James Smelair 24 Sinclair, visitor
Hubert G Grist 23 boarder


Sarah was home visiting her parents with older son ...


any thoughts about the possible George Brown in 1911 ?

BROWN GEORGE 1881 30 Wisbech Cambridgeshire


( you know it took about an hour of casting about here and there to put together this post ! )

Chrissiex

Your last message is the correct family
The key is the the fathers job Goverment Writer which is on the 1916 marriage cert

Since reading your message, I've spent so much time seaching records - most of info is not on Ancestry
Found the birth & baptismn record of George William Smith 18 Jun 1877
Found a sister Elizabeth Smith born 20 Dec 1878
but as she is not on the 1881 census presumed she died
There is however no baptism for William A
Found George Isaac Smith senior married again in 1888 and according to his probate 12 Feb 1890 on Ancestry he died 16 Dec 1889 - Shorditch.

Still no closer in following the trail of his son George William & William A
Had hope on the 1891 census they would be at he same adress. http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1283584 Another dead end - still looking for him 1891 & 1901

The question why George William married as George Isaac is because he became a gambling addict and used Issac as a Jewish sounding name to gamble in London.
Apparently he was stabbed to death :-)

about George Isaac Smith, we're still looking for info about him ?

he faked his name too when they married ( or he didn't know it )


1881

>> Name: George W. Smith
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Son
>> Father's Name: George Isaac Smith
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Islington, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Leonard Shoreditch

George Isaac Smith 25
Elizabeth Smith 23
George W. Smith 3
William A. Smith


Births Jun 1877
SMITH George Whitefield Islington 1b 229 ( no death or marriage for that name )
Births Sep 1877
SMITH George William Islington 1b 369
Births Jun 1878
SMITH George William H Islington 1b 233

?

Marriages Jun 1876
? Davies Elizabeth Thene Islington 1b 586
Richardson Eugenie Flora Islington 1b 586
SHARPE John Pendrell Islington 1b 586
? Smith George Isaac Islington 1b 586

Deaths Jun 1888
SMITH Elizabeth Thene 29 Islington 1b 219

for info about Elizabeth Gibbison

this seems to be the daughter in the 1871 household ( although in 1881 it says she was born in Marske Yorkshire ... )

Births Mar 1869
Gibbison Isabella Berwick 10b 359

in 1881 the son says

Name: Arthur Finch
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George W. Finch
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Finch
Gender: Male
> Where born: Scotland

so really yes I would look in Scotland for the marriage as Ginny says

... except I don't get a result on a free search there

another case of not married ? it wasn't so very uncommon

I also don't find an Arthur Gibbison or Finch birth in Scotland

Flick I think you're referring to this at the top of this page
'A copy of the 1911 census record Celia with Eric Smith plus 2 children'
and I think that's a typo, should say George Smith


I thought it was fairly evident Celia married bigamously the second time :-)

there was a reference here earlier to her having had a hard life in England ... possibly an abusive first husband and no access to divorce ?

trying to find a death for George Brown ... that might not even be possible, given that the name is hugely common and he would almost surely have died before 1970 so exact date of birth would not be recorded on death


what about this George Brown in 1911
they were in Wisbech reg dist in 1901
and this GB was born in Norfolk

BROWN GEORGE 1881 30 Wisbech Cambridgeshire

again we need somebody with paid access to give us the details :-)


I'm gathering that most of what we have 'found' here was already well known, e.g. that she was Finch first married to Brown then to Smith ... ?

On 1911, she claimed to have been married to George Smith for 11 years, so clearly quite comfortable with the concept of lying

Ginny.....................this should help to explain.

http://www.genesreunited.co.nz/boards.page/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1283489

I'm sorry, but I can't work out what your 'update' is trying to convey.

Who is ERIC SMITH?

What relevance does he have?

Calling herself a spinster when she re-married could mean either that she had left her husband and was lying about her status, or that her first marriage wasn't legal for some reason

Could George Brown have been a War Death? (just a thought, quite a few on below link though!)

http://www.cwgc.org/

Chris :)

Births Dec 1845 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finch Mary Caroline Cecelia Aylsham 13 12



Parents marriage?

Marriages Dec 1843 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finch George Mitford &c 13 583
WHITE Celia Clerk Mitford &c 13 583

1. Can't find a marriage for Celia's parents - have tried evrything.


Including Scotlands People?

And going on the name of his mother, this may well be him

1861 England Census
about George W Finch
Name: George W Finch
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George Finch
Mother's Name: Cella Finch
Where born: Northwold, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Northwold
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Registration district: Thetford
Sub-registration district: Methwold
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 75
Piece: 1265
Folio: 111
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
George Finch 43
Cella Finch 37
Mary C C Finch 11
Alice Finch 8
George W Finch 6

Sorry dashed off for my flu injection

I'm told to ask specific questions
Question

1. Can't find a marriage for Celia's parents - have tried evrything.
2. Can't find a likely death for George Brown
3. Any ideas why she her second marriage she would be listd as a spinster and not a widow.
4. Parents of George Smith haven't a clue how find them.

:-)

Im guessing this is her

1871 England Census
about Elizabeth W Gibbison
Name: Elizabeth W Gibbison
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Berwickshire, Scotland
Civil parish: Berwick
Ecclesiastical parish: Berwick
Town: Berwick
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Berwick
Sub-registration district: Berwick Upon Tweed
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 93
Piece: 5183
Folio: 65
Page Number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Ballam 78
Elizabeth W Gibbison 22
Isabella Gibbison 2
Francis Bullen 42


So you could try searching for a marriage between 1871 - 1879 when Celia was born

Flick, whats that about an update :-S

My tips..................

Add 'Update - see Page 2' to your title

And ask a specific question..........

Have you tried Scotlands People for the marriage of Celia* parents as looking at the census Elizabeth was born in Scotland?

I think her name might be Gibbison according to a tree on Ancestry


Could you just put the key things that you are looking for now as I am getting a bit muddled with your last post. I can read the details on page 1

I hadn't realised the disussion had continued. My mistake for not checking back on this thread. Now the update and further help needed

A copy of the 1911 census record Celia with Eric Smith plus 2 children Maud born 1902 Cambridge & George born 1910 Seacombe, mentioned above I downloaded and sent to AUS. It seems to be correct according to the address 20 Cloudesley Place, Barnsbury, Islington, London and employment of Eric Smith.

I sent for so many certs to try and sort it out from the info sent to me from AUS. Found several trees on Ancestry and GR that had mixed up some names and linked a family name which I knew was wrong so had to prove it.

Now - Celia Smith was born Celia Finch DOB 20 Jul 1879 - Docking Norfolk
Mother Elizabeth Gibbison father George Finch.

Can't find any marriege for her parents
The death and cemetry ref send by Helen is now confimed as correct.

Son Eric Smith was born 25 Nov 1915 - died 1998 Renmark, Southern Australia, Australia
Son Stanley Smith was born 7 May 1918 - Fulham, London.

The certs for the other children which I hope are correct haven't arrived yet.

The 2 marriage certs for Celia Smith I now have - they seem to be the same person from the description of the father. However they both declare her as a spinster.
Not sure if it was a bigamous marraige

1. To George Brown 4 Oct 1900 - Elm Cambridge
His DOB 13 Aug 1878 Terrington St John Norfolk, England
Parents Wiliam Brown & Maria Thompson
His brother Edward Brown is witness so the line is confirmed

I can't find any death record.

2 To George Isaac Smith 19 Aug 1916 - Fulham London(age 38) father George Isaac Smith deceased war office clerk. The 1911 census says he was born in Isilngton London
Can't find any other information about him

I am also presuming the the first child Maud is the daughter of Brown but he second child George is the child of Smith.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1282415?page=1




Anybody got any ideas. :-D

thank you Marie Celeste :-)

possible other births ( Smith Finch is not a unique surname combination )

Births Jun 1914
SMITH Leonard Finch Islington 1b 551

Births Jun 1920
Smith Lilian M Finch Fulham 1a 787


daughter Maud

Births Sep 1901
Brown Maud Risbridge 4a 898

( edited out info about husband ... I searched for George I Brown birth instead of Smith ...)

That 1911:

SMITH, George Head Married M 33 1878 Printer Islington London
SMITH, Celia Wife Married 11 years F 30 1881 Rudham
SMITH, Maud Daughter F 9 1902 Cambridge
SMITH, George Son M 1 1910 Seacombe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registration District: Islington
Sub District: Barnsbury
Enumeration District: 1
Parish: Islington

Address: 20 Cloudesley Place Islington London N County: London

Under their names was written boarders which was scratched out. The census return was completed by Mrs Smith.

** No other children born