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Just can't account for info from actual birth cert which is just as I've given it! Mother registered herself as 'Hilda Beresford formerly Macmullen' not Hilda DeHaas, but she gives son's name as 'Wlifred Geoffery deHaas' not Wilfred Geoffery Beresford! According to birth cert son had same name as his registered birth-father but his father was also in Cigar business just like Michael De Haas who married Hilda and later gives WG as his son, which makes me wonder if there was a muddle in registration?

Can anyone find a marriage record for Hilda Macmullen to Wilfred Geoffery Beresford anywhere?

Regards,
George

Michael De Haas is real


1881

Name: Michael De Haas
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

>>> Occupation: Traveller In Cigars

Civil parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London


the head of household was born in Germany

I suspect Michael was too ... unless perhaps he is Myer De Haas born in Whitechapel 1860

the name and location change in the mid-1890s ... one suspects possibly a legal problem ...

hehe

mgnv and I were doing the same thing at the same time and coming up with the same theories ... I will leave mine just because it makes two votes :-D

the only other Michael de Haas entry in the GRO index

Deaths Sep 1940
De Haas Michael 74 Islington 1b 290

= dob c1866

this has to be the death of our Michael De Haas ?


how about the other children's births
( the births below all match the places of birth in the 1911 census )

Births Jun 1894
De Haas Victoria Iris S Wandsworth 1d 616

Births Sep 1895
De Haas Mary Eveline G Poplar 1c 565

Births Mar 1897
Beresford Gordon Alexander Nottingham 7b 311
Births Mar 1897
Beresford Horace Edward Nottingham 7b 311

Births Dec 1898
Beresford Charles Frederick J D Birkenhead 8a 569


so something happened between 1895 and 1897

the location changed drastically

and the surname changed

there was either a change of name by the father or a change of partner by the mother ... who then went back to her original partner De Haas by 1911 ?


as Marie Celest suggests a change of name by the father seems to make most sense

I wonder though whether Beresford wasn't the real name

Here's the GRO index hits for the kids

Births Jun 1894 (>99%)
De Haas Victoria Iris S Wandsworth 1d 616

Births Sep 1895 (>99%)
De Haas Mary Eveline G Poplar 1c 565

Births Mar 1897 (>99%)
Beresford Gordon Alexander Nottingham 7b 311
Beresford Horace Edward Nottingham 7b 311

Births Dec 1898 (>99%)
Beresford Charles Frederick J D Birkenhead 8a 569

Births Dec 1900 (>99%)
Beresford John Arthur S W. Derby 8b 657

Births Sep 1902 (>99%)
Beresford Wilfred Geoffery De H Birkenhead 8a 618

Some local indexes are online via: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
Poplar is under http://www.thbmd.co.uk/ but less than 10% of 1895 is transcribed (and no De Haas hit).

It seems to me there's a couple of plausible scenarios:
1) Michael changed his name for a while for whatever reason
2) Hilda ran off with a workmate of Michael's, but some 10y later, Michael took her back.

In the later case, there ought to be some evidence of Wilf, both pre- and post-1901.

I've got to do the weekly shop now - I'll check back later re the search for Wilf.

The child's surname is not on a birth certificate

It is assumed that his surname is the same as the person named as father (or mother if illegitimate)


so he has been given deHaas as a third forename


His full name then, as registered, is Wilfred Geoffrey deHaas Beresford



sylvia

This is the full 1901 following mgnv's post 05/12/11:

BERESFORD, Wilfred Head Married M 40 1861 Dealer In Cigars London
BERESFORD, Hilda Wife Married F 34 1867 London
BERESFORD, Victoria J S Daughter Single F 7 1894 London
BERESFORD, Mary E G Daughter Single F 5 1896 London
BERESFORD, Horace E Son Single M 4 1897 Nottingham Nottinghamshire
BERESFORD, Gordon A Son Single M 4 1897 NottinghamNottinghamshire
BERESFORD, Charles F J Son Single M 2 1899 Cheshire
BERESFORD, John A S Son Single M 0 (5 MOS) 1901 Liverpool Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District: West Derby
Civil Parish: Wavertree

Address: 69, Blantyre Road, Wavertree County: Lancashire

Obviously the same mother and children as in 1911. Now, is it possible that Wilfred Beresford and Michael de Haas are one and the same person? Does the latter perhaps sound more appropriate for selling luxury items like cigars?

But surely if Hilda was remarrying to WG Beresford she would be marrying in her previous married name of de Haas?

Of course, they may never have actually married .....

I believe if Hilda was not legally married to Beresford at the time of Wilfred's birth in 1902 then he would be registered in her current name (de Haas) even though Beresford was the father.

Thanks for further info, but now got further related follow up problem:
Just got death cert for 'Wilfred Geoffery Hayes otherwise Wilfred Geoffery Beresford' for his death 31 July 1987 Margate, Thanet, Kent which also gives his birth as 14 Aug 1902 at Wallasey, Merseyside, so I then got his birth cert which shows correct date of birth 14 Aug 1902 at Trafalgar Road, Liscard (birth reg in Wallasey, Birkenhead, Cheshire) but that shows him as 'Wilfred Geoffery 'deHaas' but then gives his father as Wilfred Geoffery BERESFORD 'Cigar Dealer (Master)' and mother as Hilda Beresford formerly Macmullen. I already have records of a marriage between Hilda MacMullen 'Spinster' and Michael DeHaas 'Cigar Manufacturer' but I can find no record of any marriage between Hilda Macmullen/MacMullen/McMullen and Wilfred Geoffery Beresford although I have found Wilfred in census records with them as their son with siblings. I am wondering if the birth cert was incorrectly filled in by error or on purpose, or is there a Macmullen & Beresford marriage somewhere which I've missed? Would be most grateful for any further help please.
Sorry if I cannot always get back quickly to my thread messages, but as I explained above my wife had sudden medical problem and I'm now fully engaged in her aftercare so not got much spare time to check back in very often. However I am still very keen to progress research as and when time permits, so thanks for any further help that can be provided.
Regards,
George

Marriages Jun 1888 (>99%)
DE HAAS Michael Greenwich 1d 1246
JONES Rose Greenwich 1d 1246
LINDSAY David Greenwich 1d 1246
MACMULLIN Hilda Greenwich 1d 1246

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BERESFORD Charles Frederick Joseph Dehaas Wallasey Wirral WAL/69/23

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1900
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BERESFORD John A S Wavertree Liverpool WAV/72/5

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1902
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BERESFORD Wilfred Geoffrey De Haas Wallasey Wirral WAL/80/97


Piece Folio Page Registration District
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Wilfred West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Hilda West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Victoria J S West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Mary E G West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Horace E West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Gordon A West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, Charles F J West Derby
RG13/3504 117 53 BERESFORD, John A S West Derby

*** Maybe someone with a sub can post details of the above 1901 census ***

Hi all,
Sorry for long delay in checking back in but my wife was suddenly taken ill and went into hospital just after I sent my post. Thanks for all your work and info on this matter.
Regards,
George

Having responded this morning to your PM i see I gave info that was already posted on here after i retired to bed .which you already knew ie re Gladys death and the fact they were divorced.

As stated there doesn't seem to be another marriage to a Louise

it is very useful if you start out ( as the guidelines in the post 'please read before posting ) giving -us- the information that -you- already have ... so we don't spend a lot of time searching so that we have it too

Births Sep 1902
Beresford Wilfred Geoffery De H Birkenhead 8a 618

Wilfred Geoffrey D Beresford 1902 Aug 1987 Thanet Kent
Wilfred Geoffery De Haas Beresford 1902 Aug 1987 Thanet Kent
Wilfred Geoffery Hayes 1902 Aug 1987 Thanet Kent

evidently he anglicised his name to Hayes, but the Beresford ...

it would be quite unusual for the child of a married man with another woman to be living in the wife's household ( in 1911 ) ... possibly actually the child of a brother of the father with a woman he was not married to ? it is not uncommon to see the father's surname as a given name in that situation

Hi thanks all,
NB; His death cert gives his birth as 31 Oct 1900 in Liverpool which fits 1911 census which I've got.

I have all his other found records, plus all sibling research, on my public tree at Ancestry under 'Hinman Family Tree (Revised)' which can be found on tree search if that helps anyone here (there is someone else with 'Hinman Family Tree' but that's not me or same)

For some reason one of John's siblings seems to appear on cross ref death records in Thanet, Kent either as Wilfred Geoffery De Haas Beresford, or Wilfred Geoffery Hayes, for same details/dates & refs, but birth was under Wilfred Geoffery De H Beresford in Birkenhead, Cheshire, Merseyside but don't know why yet, as John's mother's maiden name was MacMullen, so different mothers maybe. Not that this really helps about John though!

By the way the 1924 marriage in West Ham to Edwards was John's first marriage to my mother.

Thanks for all the input so far, which will have study again in detail, as late now.

I'll check in again tomorrow (wow, that's already later today now!).

Thanks & goodnight,
George

no way to know whether the wife in a second marriage had been previously married so searching for births would be difficult


I can't find a record of John's birth ... just wondering whether he might have siblings and thus living nieces/nephews who might know something of him

the 1911 census has two

DE HAAS JOHN 1901 10 Hackney London
DE HAAS JOHN 1901 10 West Ham Essex

West Ham ? parents fit

[ oops jax was adding the 1911 transcription so I delete mine ]

if that is them one might expect there to be quite a few living relatives

1911 census - household transcription
Person: DE HAAS, Michael
Address: 33 Grosvenor Road Upton E


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DE HAAS, Michael Head Married M 48 1863 Cigar Dealer Mount St E London VIEW
DE HAAS, Hilda Wife Married
23 years F 44 1867 Barnett London VIEW
DE HAAS, Victoria Daughter Single F 17 1894 No Occupation Clapham London VIEW
DE HAAS, Mary Daughter1 Single F 15 1896 Feather Wallen Bow London VIEW
DE HAAS, Gordon Son Single M 14 1897 Oil And Color Trade Assistant Lenton Votts VIEW
DE HAAS, Horace Son Single M 14 1897 Watch Maker Apprentice Lenton Notts VIEW
DE HAAS, Charles Son Single M 12 1899 Schooling Seacombe Cheshire VIEW
DE HAAS, John Son Single M 10 1901 Schooling Liverpool Lancs VIEW
DE HAAS, Wilfred Son Single M 8 1903 School Egremont Cheshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes please delete the duplicate thread

since it has more info I will copy it here ( in more readable form)



Looking for any descendants or living relatives of above subject who was ex Omnibus Driver born 31/10/1900 Liverpool & died 3/2/1973 East Ham, Forest Gate, LB Newham, London (His father was Michael DeHaas 'Cigar Manufacturer')

Subject person was ex-husband of my late mother Gladys Annie DeHaas, nee Edwards and they married 1924 in West Ham.

His child by his first marriage to my mother was Pamela Joan DeHaas b1929-d1989 who was my late half-sister, but he was not my father.

He is believed to have remarried sometime after 1944 and had children by that marriage too, as got Pam's old photos of his endorsed "Love to granddad", but he also had siblings who married so should be relatives around.

Louise May DeHaas was informant on his death certificate and she may be widow or relative?
George

hm


there are births registered in the 50s on ancestry, father de Haas, mother Vos


and there are some Haas, mother Molony




sylvia

Maybe you would like to delete this one

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/living_relatives/thread/1284180