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Thing is Vera, we have homed in on the Ellen in Cheltenham as being the right Ellen cos she is with what seems to be the son of John and Matilda. But is it the right Ellen?

The James Harris, butler, has become a clerk on the marriage of his daughters Maud and Kathleen Mary on the same date.

My friend has had contact with the grand-daughter of Kathleen Mary, who sadly knows nothing of the history.

Lateral thinking is needed, and I am not good at it. Anyone else good at it?

Margaret

Not sure how this is going help with the link to Ellen and Roseanna and eliminate the other family (John and Matilda).

Perhaps Adelaide Maud's birth cert would be more useful and give some clues about Ellen (Peat).

Is it possible I wonder that Ellen started off as a Harris ie sister of Roseanna, married a Peat and then either married or took the name of James Harris (Butler).

I note that in 1881 the Ellen living with brother in Cheltenham was single but James Harris, Butler was married.

Just some thoughts.

Vera

Tree on Ancestry has Dorothy Adelaide Davis marrying Neil MacLeod. I have contacted the person, no activity for 6 months, so not hopeful.

Birth and marriage of Dorothy:

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Dorothy A Davis Name: Dorothy A Davis
Mother's Maiden Surname: Harris
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1920
Registration district: Hampstead
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 1011 (click to see others on page)

Name: Dorothy A Davis
Spouse Surname: Mcleod
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1938
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 1574
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Child of the pair:

Name: Margaret H Mcleod
Mother's Maiden Surname: Davis
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1938
Registration district: Hampstead
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 702 (click to see others on page)

What do you think? Worth a cert?

Margaret

This one looks possible too:

Name: Adelaide Maud Harris
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1886
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 432 (click to see others on page)

My friend just found that Vera - on the same page as the marriage of sister Kathleen Mary - Ellen Harris and Edith Pryor witnessed both, and all were living at 65 St John's Wood/Terrave.

I've edited earlier post that said James Harris was a porter. He's a clerk.

Guessing the Maud is born c 1887, so will pass on that birth, thanks.

Back after more searching.

Here is Maud's marriage. Living at 65 St John's Wood Terrace at time of marriage. Father deceased Clerk. Spouse Porter. Witnesses Ellen Harris and Edith ?Pryor. Still nothing linking Ellen to Rose A.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Maud Adelaide Harris Name: Maud Adelaide Harris
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Spouse Name: Edwin Davis
Spouse Age: 34
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 07 Jun 1919
Parish: St Stephen the Martyr, Hampstead
County: London
Borough: Camden
Father Name: James Harris
Spouse Father Name: John Davis

Vera

????

Islington reg district for Highbury.. Note 1911 census and 1901 have two dfferent dobs for Maud

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Maud Harris Name: Maud Harris
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1887
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 349 (click to see others on page)


Vera

Have you got this certificate?


Births Sep 1857
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Harrison Ellen Kidderminster 6c 218

Apols for not getting back sooner, had some (living) family problems.

We cannot find any emigration or immigration records for Rose/Anne, including on FMP.

The Ollen Harriet etc in Cheltenham in 1891 and 1901 doesn't seem to be our Ellen, cos she is in London then. But odd that in 1881 she is with brother Edward (Charles Edward?).

My friend has now passed me the marriage of Kathleen Mary in 1919, age 27, showing father James Harris, Butler (EDIT he's a Clerk), dec'd, one of the witnesses is Ellen Harris. The marriage is in Hampstead, bride and groom living at 65 St John's Wood (Terrace? - where Ellen was living when she notified the death of sister Roseanna Oughton). Of course there are several deaths of a James Harris between 1901 and 1911, but not in Hampstead or Marylebone. Even if we found the right one, it would likely be registered by Ellen or one of the daughters, and will not provide any connection between her and Roseanna.

There is no birth for Maud Harris, 1887, nor Maud Peat.

We don't know who the parents of the two kiddies Gertie and Edie are.

The Ann M Harris age 5 in 1871 is Annie Matilda b Evesham Sep Qtr 1864 but there is no sign of her again. No death either. Did she emigrate with big sister Roseanna? I'm not too good on overseas records - virtually none of my rellies emigrated.

But the last two paras are irrelevant if "our" Ellen and Roseanna were not the kids of James and Matilda.

There's no Ellen Peat with a sister Rosanna that either I or my friend can find.

Have we reached the stage of giving up? My friend is a pretty good sleuth and will carry on to the death.

Meg

I just wonder if there are any immigration records for Rose Ann which may give next of kin. Abraham and Sarah's on Ancestry but nothing for Rose Ann. There is one for a Rosey Harris travrelling into Philadelphia in 1885 but she is then aged 33 years. FMP might have something on her.

Will carry on looking. That Peat is a puzzle.

Vera

My friend has bought many certificates (lots of them the wrong ones) and is determined to carry on doing so to prove the right family. She only has homed in on John and Matilda as the parents cos there are no others that fit. John and Matilda have daughters Ellen and Roseann. We know that Roseann has a sister Ellen. That is about it.

She has a birth cert for Rosanne Harris (sorry, so many different spellings,, parents John Harris and Matilda Maries- but is it HER Rosanne? This is the issue. She has no birth cert for Ellen cos there doesnt seem to be one.

She has all relevant certs for the children of Abraham OUghton and Roseanna Harris. Not a problem there.

The problem arises cos Abraham Oughton and Rosanna Harris married in Philadelphia with no fathers names. So there is no trail to Rosanna's family.

She has the birth cert of Kathleen Mary Harris, father James Harris, mother Ellen Peat. Whatever this woman's real name she is the "sister" of Rosanne who registers her death and administers her estate.

If anyone can suggest other certs that my friend can usefully apply for,please suggest, and I am sure that she will.

Meg

If your friend has Matilda and John as the parents.....where has she got the info from?

It's all very convoluted, maybe your friend could let you know what she/he has as fact, ie certificates and then we can go from there

Has your friend bought any certificates?

Oh heck, such a lot to absorb. I often forget to thank people, but thanks to you all. I think I forgot to say that on the birth of Kathleen Mary Harris, her parents are James Harris and Ellen Peat. I can see that the James Harris as a live-in servant might be Ellen's husband, but how is Ellen (Peat) a sister of Rose Harris? No marriage found of Ellen Peat and James Harris. I don't think she ever married. But no proof and that is what is needed isn't it?

No, there are no fathers given on the marriage of Ellen Harris to Abraham Oughton in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Basically that is our starting point, we can't get back any further.

I will copy all this lot to my friend.

The tree on Ancestry that has John and Matilda Harris is probably hers.

I am trying to disprove that Ellen was the sister of John Edward Harris, daughter of John and Matilda, cos their Rosa married Jesse Tibbles, and I want a Rose who married Abraham Oughton.

I appreciate that all these districts of Worcestershire/Warwickshire are close together, and I don't know the geography, but both "our" Ellen and Rosa mention Stoke Works, which seems not to exist as a district at all.

James Harris in census 1851:


HARRIS, Eli Head Married M 39 1812 Coachman Towcester Northamptonshire
HARRIS, Mary Wife Married F 40 1811 Employed In Domestic Affairs Switzerland
HARRIS, Eli Son M 11 1840 Scholar Towcester Northamptonshire
HARRIS, William Son M 9 1842 Scholar Liverpool Lancashire
HARRIS, Francis Son M 8 1843 Scholar Roby Lancashire
>>>>>HARRIS, James Son M 7 1844 Scholar Roby Lancashire
HARRIS, Mary Daughter F 1 1850 Hutton Lancashire
HARRIS, Jane Daughter F 0 (3 MOS) 1851 Infant Hutton Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
2264 Folio:
108 Page:
12 Registration District:
Preston

Civil Parish:
Hutton Municipal Borough:

Address:
Tusons Row, Hutton County:
Lancashire

James is still a live in butler for the Hay family in 1891:

HAY, Charles A Head Married M 57 1834 Living On Own Mean Kensington
Middlesex
HAY, Mary B Wife Married F 47 1844 Paddington Middlesex
HAY, Mary A Daughter Single F 18 1873 St Marylebone Middlesex
HAY, Edith M Daughter Single F 14 1877 St Marylebone London
HAY, Beatrice C Daughter Single F 11 1880 St Marylebone London
HAY, Edward G Son Single M 8 1883 St Marylebone London
>>>>HARRIS, James Servant Married M 47 1844 Butler Domestic Servant Groby Lancashire
WEBSTER, Arthur Servant Single M 19 1872 Footman Domestic Servant
Heyford Oxfordshire
MITCHELL, Janet Servant Single F 32 1859 Cook Domestic Servant
Scotland
ARMSBY, Mary Servant Single F 25 1866 Childrens Maid Domestic Servant
Kimbolton Huntingdonshire
OWENS, Elizabeth Servant Single F 35 1856 Upper Housemaid Domestic Servant Holyhead Anglesey
LOCK, Ellen Servant Single F 17 1874 Under Housemaid Domestic Servant Paddington London
BASS, Lillian Servant Single F 17 1874 Kitchenmaid Domestic Servant
Old Ford London

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
93 Folio:
9 Page:
11 Registration District:
Marylebone

Civil Parish:
St Marylebone Municipal Borough:

Address:
127, Harley Street, St Marylebone County:
London

Ginny's live in butler James Harris in 1881 ties in with my baptism of Ellen's daughter Kathleen in 1891 posted earlier, where father James is a butler.

Hmmm this migght be the husband and explain why his doesnt show on the census with Ellen as he is a live in Butler

1881 England Census
about James Harris
Name: James Harris
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Roby, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 127 Harley Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Butler

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Cavendish Square
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 139
Folio: 84
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Charles A. Hay 47
Mary S. B. Hay 37
Mary A. Hay 8
Thos. C. Hay 6
Edith M. Hay 4
Beatrice Caroline Hay 1
James Harris 37 <<<Married
Martha Thorne 28
Jane Matthews 30
Jane Jones 38
Thomas Gatenley 22
Susan Tolman 22
Margaret Roff 20
Alice Brown 18

I dont think Ellen ever married. This looks like her with her brother Edward (John Edward Harris b 1862 Bromsgrove)

1881 England Census
about Ellen Harris
Name: Ellen Harris
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address: Glenfall St 1 Godstone Cottage
Occupation: Dressmaker

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2570
Folio: 14
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Chas F. Jelf 23
Lily Mary Jelf 22
Fredk Chas Jelf
Edwd Harris 20 <<
Ellen Harris 24 <<

1891 England Census
about Ollen Harriet
Name: Ollen Harriet
[Ellen Harris]
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Employment status: Dressmaker

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2044
Folio: 52
Page Number: 5
Household Members: Name Age
Ollen Harriet 33
Elizabeth Brookes 59

1901 England Census
about Ellen Harris
Name: Ellen Harris
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove

Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Employment status: Dressmaker
Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 49
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 343
Piece: 2465
Folio: 158
Page Number: 58
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Harris 45
Gertrude Chess 20


Thinking on, the will does put Ellen in London? Maybe that is her that you have on the censuses with her daughters but it looks like she never married?

1861 England Census
about Matilda Harris
Name: Matilda Harris
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Henley in Arden, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Bengeworth
Town: Evesham
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Evesham
Sub-registration district: Evesham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 249
Piece: 2100
Folio: 74
Page Number: 49
Household Members: Name Age
John Harris 33
Matilda Harris 30
Linley Harris 12 (Emily)
Frances Harris 9
Arthur Harris 6
Ellen Harris 4 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Rosa 2


Theres a couple of possibles for Ellen as a servant aged 15 on the 1871 censuses

Why would Ellen still be called Harris if she married, unless she married a Harris, I cant find a marriage that matches?

Ellen is never listed with a 'husband' on the censuses that you post so I would think that Ellen never married?

So I would guess this is Rose* birth


Births Jun 1859
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HARRIS Rosanna Droitwich 6c 363