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I can't see a baptism for James, but younger companion in 1841 is Thomas born 1830.

IGI has extracted record for baptism of Thomas Seymour
12 DEC 1830 Cheshunt, Hertford, England

parents John Seymour and Maria.

There is also a baptism that could be younger companion Elizabeth born c1833 from census 1841.

IGI extracted record has baptism for

Elizabeth Seymour
23 JUN 1833 Cheshunt, Hertford, England

Again, parents are John Seymour and Maria.

Not any help, but James Seymour was living in Bury St in 1841:

The Seymours are all down as not born in county. Whatever was put down as James's occupation has been crossed out and I can't read it.

Census 1841

MARLBOROUGH, William M 50 1791 Middlesex
MARLBOROUGH, Mariah F 40 1801
MARLBOROUGH, George M 2 1839 Middlesex
>>>SEYMOUR, James M 19 1822
>>SEYMOUR, Thomas M 11 1830
>>SEYMOUR, Elizabeth F 8 1833
ALLEN, Sarah F 15 1826

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Parish:
Edmonton Municipal Borough:

Address:
Bury Street, Edmonton County:
Middlesex

So we're looking for a James Seymour born c1821/22 Cheshunt, Herts, with a father called John Seymour, a labourer?

Many thanks for all the info. so far supplied.

James Seymour, Mary Ann's husband, was definitely my ancestor. As all the census reports, collected to date, show she was born in Monmouthshire, I have concluded (as far as one can) that the Mary Ann baptised at St Woolas is my Mary Ann.

Please keep digging.

Should anyone come across any reference to James Seymour 's forebears I would be delighted to hear of it.

JEC

Eliza's marriage. Her father is for some reason recorded as John Joyce (quite clear on register) but he is a soldier. Ties in with Sylvia's 1851 census findings:

Name: Eliza Joyce
Spouse Name: John Weatherley - occ labourer
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Aug 1846
Parish: Tottenham All Hallows
Borough: Haringey
Father Name: John Joyce - occ soldier
Spouse Father Name: Edward Weatherley -occ labourer
Register Type: Parish Register

JAMES SEYMOUR (Mary Ann's husband) made his mark as one of the witnesses.

Caroline's marriage. Her address is given as Edmonton and she is described as a 42 yr old spinster:

Name: Caroline Joyce
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Spouse Name: Jeremiah Wheeler
Spouse Age: 35 - occ factory labourer
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Jun 1874
Parish: Hornsey Rise
Borough: Islington
Father Name: James Joyce - occ soldier
Spouse Father Name: John Wheeler -occ gardener
Register Type: Parish Register

If the family were on board ship from Ireland to Wales there wouldn't be any shipping lists. They were travelling in the same country.


Ozi

well, here on the 1851 is Caroline Joyce, born ca 1832, as a Visitor, with her sister Eliza


1851 Census

Name: Caroline Joyce
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Visitor
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Edmonton, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton

John Wetherby 26
Eliza Wetherby 25 b.ca 1826, Ireland
Betsey Wetherby 1
Caroline Joyce 19

Address:- Bury Street

The name could be Wetherly




sylvia

Mary Ann was "of full age" on her marriage certificate ....... which means she was over 21, assuming she told the truth!


Is this her in 1851?

Name: Mary Ann Seymour
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James Seymour
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Nk, Wales

Civil parish: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton

James Seymour 29 Farm Lab
Mary Ann Seymour 27
Emma Seymour 5
Maria Seymour 3
Louisa Seymour 9 MO

Address:- Bury Street


Interesting .... that's the same street as the street for the Joyce's in 1841.



sylvia

I found the baptism on the new beta.family search site .............. it is taken from the actual parish register

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Mary Anne Joyce

Name: Mary Anne Joyce
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Mar 1824
Baptism/Christening Place: ST WOOLAS,NEWPORT,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: James Joyce
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary Anne
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02450-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 104900
Reference Number:




HOWEVER ....... there are quite a few other Mary Ann(e) Joyce's born at about the same time


How do you know that you have picked the correct one?


Have you any other evidence that this is indeed your Mary Ann Joyce?

If you are taking your information from familysearch ........... did you check whether it was marked Submitted. Such records are NOT to be trusted ....... most of them are submitted by individuals (usually church members) and are backed by no documentation.



As an example of what I mean, I asked on beta.familysearch, which carries transcripts from parish Registers, for Mary Ann Joyce, born 1824 +/- 5 years, no place cited, no parents cited.

Results:-

Mary Ann Joyce
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 23 May 1824 Paul,? Cornwall,? England
residence: Paul,? Cornwall,? England
parents: John Joyce,? Mary


Mary Ann Joyce
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 13 Aug 1823 St. Sepulchre's,? Northampton,? Northampton,? England
residence: Northampton,? Northampton,? England
parents: Joseph Joyce,? Roda


Mary Ann Joyce
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 04 Nov 1822
christening: 20 Apr 1823 HELENS LANE MEETING HOUSE OR STOCKWELL CHAPEL-?INDECOLCHES,?COLCHESTER,?ESSEX,?ENGLAND
residence: 1822 Essex,? England
parents: Wm. Joyce,? Mary


Mary Ann Joyce
England and Wales, Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8)
christening: 20 Apr 1823 Colchester,? Essex
parents: William Joyce,? Mary Joyce


Mary Ann Joyce
Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1878-1922
birth: 1825 Ireland
death: 24 Oct 1884 Chicago,? Cook,? Illinois


Mary Ann Joyce
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 10 Jul 1822
christening: 28 Jul 1822 SAINT JAMES,?WESTMINSTER,?LONDON,?ENGLAND
residence: 1822 London,? England
parents: James Joyce,? Sarah




Mary Ann Joyce
England and Wales Census, 1861
birth: 1823 Portsmouth,


Mary Ann Joyce
England and Wales Census, 1861
birth: 1823 Billesdon

Mary Ann Joyce
England and Wales Census, 1901
birth: 1825 N K,? London



and there are many more!



sylvia

Hi Penny

Another PM, Please reply here - its so much easier, white box to ''add a reply''

I have found several refs. to Mary Ann being born aboard ship, including the Morman site. Her birth was registered in Monmouth. Presumably the ship put into port there. It's original destination? I've tried shipping lists but without embarkation details i've dug up nothing.

Her baptism, again from 'Family Search', was at St Woolas, near to Newport, Mon.

Then I lose her until her marriage, 1846, in Edmonton.


When was her birth registered? Civil registration didnt begin until 1837

I wondred whether the Caroline in the baptism had been a previous child who died (and then name reused for a subsequent child) - given same mother's name and address of Bury St, or whether the enumerator had got carried away and rounded eveyone, children and all, down to nearest five years. However having looked at the image again, people are recorded in other than 5 yr multiples of age, so the second theory doesn't hold water.

It just seemed unlikely to me that two different Mary Joyces would give each give birth to a daughter Caroline on the same street; and the coincidence of a soldier father called James seemed worth mentioning.


EDIT: In the light of Sylvia's 1851 census findings, and my marriage findings, it looks like it is Caroline's age as recorded in census 1841 that is inaccurate, and the 1832 birth/baptism date correct.

Had a PM=- please reply here, its so much easier.

Whart makes you think she was born on a ship?

What was ''Reg. Monmouthshire'', ??

The image of that baptism posted by Kucinta above, has a birth date of 13 April written in ......... no year, which usually means that it is the same year as the baptism.




sylvia

This Caroline Joyce is 'older' than the one in census 1841 by a few years, but her father James is a soldier.

Also the address is Bury St, as in census 1841.

Name: Caroline Joyce
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1832
Baptism Date: 6 May 1832
Father's Name: James Joyce
Mother's Name: Mary Joyce
Parish or Poor Law Union: Edmonton All Saints
Borough: Enfield
Register Type: Parish Registers

???

A Mary Ann Joyce in Edmonton in 1841 - ages of 'adults' were rounded down to nearest 5 years. Mary Ann down as not born in county:


JOYCE, Mary F 35 1806 Ireland
JOYCE, Mary Ann F 15 1826
JOYCE, Eliza F 15 1826 Ireland
JOYCE, Caroline F 5 1836 Middlesex
BREESE, Samuel M 65 1776
WILLIAMS, John M 25 1816 Middlesex
WILLIAMS, Mary Ann F 30 1811
WILLIAMS, Mary Ann F 1 1840 Middlesex

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
652 Book/Folio:
8/8 Page:
9 Registration District:
Edmonton

Civil Parish:
Edmonton Municipal Borough:
Address:

Bury Street, Edmonton County:
Middlesex

Just for info:


Name: James Seymour - labourer
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Mary Anne Joyce
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Jan 1846
Parish: Edmonton All Saints
Borough: Enfield
Father Name: John Seymour - labourer
Spouse Father Name: James Joyce - soldier
Register Type: Parish Register

Ships name?

Mary Ann Joyce born 1824 aboard ship. Reg. Monmouthshire, baptised, St Woolas. Father, James Joyce, soldier; mother, Mary Ann Joyce. Married James Seymour, Edmonton 1846. That's all I have. I'd like to know more about ship, which and why, and parents. Please help. JEC