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Hi thanks rootsgatherer

Teresa

Cooper, the Lizzie Helm (born 1877) on the 1891 census is more likely to be the Elizabeth Helm, aged 4 years on the 1881 census with father Joseph, mother Elizabeth and siblings Joseph, Thomas and Lily. I don't think that she is the daughter of Joseph and Charlotte.

I just wanted to say thankyou to you all for your help today, The helms are a difficult lot to find and doesnt help because everyone is called Joseph. Joseph James seemed to like the name so much he called his first born Joseph from his first marriage in in 1891 and his last bornJosep from his second marrige,!!

I was confused and you have helped iron out some of the puzzle :)

Teresa.

Hi allotment,

Fredrick Alfred born in 1882 is the brother of my great great Grandfather Joseph John Helm who was born in 1869.
Their mother was Elizabth Helm nee Staddon


Susan Lizzy Helm would be the daughter of the second marriage of Joseph James to Charlotte.

On the 1891 census where Joseph 66 and his sons Joseph 18 and Thomas 17 were employed as painters could be my Helms. All the Josephs were house painters for a few generations. and all first born Sons called Joseph.

Thelma, im not sure if the Joseph and Emma are the same as the spelling is different but thank you for looking.

Teresa

A possible for Elizabeth Helm bn 1877( Dau)

England Census
about Lizzie Helm Name: Lizzie Helm
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Chelsea, London, England

Civil parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, South
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 63
Folio: 177
Page Number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Barclay 43
Annie Barclay 40
Maggie Barclay 15
Bessie Barclay 11
Emily Barclay 8
Lizzie Helm 14
Samuel I Thorpe 26

This looks like Joseph in 1891.

Clearly mistranscibed as bn ireland on original image,he has his two older sons with him.

1891 England Census
about Joseph Helm Name: Joseph Helm
Age: 66
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Ireland

Civil parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, South
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 64
Folio: 31
Page Number: 56
Household Members: Name Age
William Prentice 34
Louisa Prentice 32
William Prentice 12
Louisa Prentice 8
Henry Smith 38
Maria Smith 38
Florence Smith 13
Henry Smith 8
Louie Smith 2
Dennis B Oryan 35
Joseph Helm 66 <<Painter
Joseph Helm 18 <<Painter
Thomas Helm 17 <<Painter

You have not mentioned a previous wife.

1871 England Census
about Joseph Helem Name: Joseph Helm on image
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Helem
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Battersea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 188
Piece: 701
Folio: 21
Page Number: 37
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Helem 23 (house painter)
Emma Helem 20
Joseph Helem 6 Months

I am having trouble finding all the children Joseph had with Elizabeth in census after 1881.

Sue

Thankyou so much everyone,

I have got to pop out now, have a friend round for lunch, its her birthday

I will be back later and will reply later

With thanks once again

Teresa :-)

Hi Shirley, thankyou for that.

Wonder where all the other Children went ?

Hi Susan thankyou

I do have another child Frederick Alfred born 14th may 1812 at the address 6 Allington Street to Joseph and Elizabeth

Teresa

he gives his marital status as Widower on the marriage cert to Charlotte
ame: Joseph Helm
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Spouse Name: Charlotte Mary Smith
Spouse Age: 36
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Oct 1905
Parish: Chelsea St Luke
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Father Name: Joseph Helm
Spouse Father Name: Alfred Smith
Register Type: Parish Register

Cooper

I am not finding a Death for Elizabeth and the children they had together are not with Joseph and his new wife in later Census so I would say they are with there mother Elizabeth.

Sue

Ah, well I have been given this info by a distant relative, I know I have all the right people because I have traced them back to my Mum, from Joseph and Elizabeths line

I have Joseph and Elizabeths marriage cert which I sent to the the records office for.

I didnt know Joseph had remaried until last week when I made contact on another site through a shared family tree.

That will teach me for not researching properly, only thing is I didnt seem to be able to tie things in. The Helms are all Josephs for generations!

Teresa

Hi Cooper

Joseph and Elizabeth married 1876,by the 1881 census they had 4 children.

Joseph's marriage to Elizabeth.

, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Joseph Helm Jr Name: Joseph Helm Jr
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Staddon
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Dec 1876
Parish: Lambeth St Mary
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: Joseph Helm
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Staddon
Register Type: Parish Register

England Census 1881
about Elizabeth Helm Name: Elizabeth Helm
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Joseph Helm
Gender: Female
Where born: Westr, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 6 Allington Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district: St John Westminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 113
Folio: 11
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Helm 33
Elizabeth Helm 30
Joseph Helm 11
Thomas Helm 9
Elizabeth Helm 4
Lily Helm 2

I wonder if Joseph and Elizabeth divorced but they were from a working class family and it would have been very expensive in those days.

Thanks rootgatherer,

I didnt realise that things like that went on in those days,

I have Joseph listed at 6 Allingon/Wellington Street Chelsea when he was married to Elizabeth and at the time of his marriage in 1905 when he married Charlotte.

Thanks everyone,

All details add up, Joseph was married twiceto Elizabeth and then Charlotte but when did his first wife Elizabeth die?

Elizabeth had her last child in 1882, a boy and Joseph and new spouce Charlotte had their first child in 1991

It would be usual for a couple to live together before marriage if one of them was not free to marry.


Perhaps Joseph wasn't free to marry until 1905?

Thelma there is a William Frederick Helm born 23rd feb 1891 so that must be the son of Joseph and Charlotte.

They have other children listed

Alice Louisa 1894
Florrie Elizabeth 1897
Charlotte mary 1900
Joseph Alexander 1905

Charlotte and Joseph married in 1905
Was it usual to live together in those days befor marriage?

He has a child with his prevous wife Elizabeth in 1882