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That will take some getting my head round. I'll have to try and get some more information on this Matthew and Sarah, particularly her maiden name. Then to find the link between Alexander and Scotland.

Time for tea and some serious thinking.

thank you.

Janet,
That's exactly what I though you would say
There are 6 births in Co Down betwen 1839 and 1851.
ALL were born to Matthew Geddes and wife Sarah. ( although I can't get a match with mccracken)
These births match the info you gave.

Margaret Geddes b 1839
John William Geddes b 1841
Matthew Geddes b 1844
Sarah Geddes b 1846
David Geddes b 1848
Henry Geddes b 1851

( I think I also located some of them on Scottish records from 1871 onwards. Matthew Geddes b 1844. Marry Jane Elliot?)

Anne

I cannot find any birth around 1872 for an Alexander Geddes
I have a sneaky suspicion that Alexander is indeed a nephew of Margaret Whiteside Ms Geddes..... possibly born to one of her siblings?
I have seen marriage certs where someone named their grandparents as their parents

I think you can definitely discout Matthew Geddes b 1839 in Lochmaben having any connection to your family at this stage

Sorry Anne. I hadn't realised there were 2 pages and answered your previous post on the first page, then read this. Will PM you. Thank you.

Anne

Yes, Whiteside is Margaret's married name. Both her and her brother Matthew (yes another one) were born in Ireland but both married in Scotland. Both their marriage records lists Matthew Geddes, Joiner Journeyman, and Sarah McCracken, nee Scott, as their parents. Grandfather's marriage records also state this.

If Sandy was really Margaret's nephew that would mean he would have to have been born to either of Matthews 2 younger sisters, Jannet or Mary. Just to complicate matters further, Sandy, his wife, his 2 children and the Whitesides all moved to Belfast. the 1901 and 1911 census lists Sandy as being born in Scotland and this time Sandy's son Alec is living with the Whitesides as a - guess what - nephew.

Confused ? Join the club. :-D

Hi Janet,
I honestly think that this is a "square peg and round hole" scenario.
I dont any connection between Matthew Geddes b 1839 Lochmaben and this particular family
No evidence of a Scottish connection prior to the birth of Alexander 1872 in Ireland

There is no reason why the girl who married and became Mrs Whiteside would not provide her birth parents names.
Presumably her sibling named the same parents?

It seems to me, that their father was called Matthew Geddes.
This man would be quite a bit older that the one born in Lochmaben 1839.

If you wished, you could PM their mother's name and I could look at Irish records and see if I can find her marriage and subsequent births in Ireland.

Anne

It partially worked up to the present, as I can now definitely discount the Matthew and Sarah Rogerson connection

Yes, but was trying to find information from a different angle as everyone drew a blank there. She has the Irish connection but I thought if I tried from the Scottish angle it might be easier. Their records are so much better and I don't think Matthew was ever in Ireland.

Janet,
Am I looking at the right census, family called Whiteside of Dempster Street, Greenock?

If so, both returns state that Alexander Geddes was born in Ireland, and both state that he was a nephew to the head of household..

Do you have any positive info that would connect this Alexander to Matthew Geddes b 1839 in Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire.

Anne.

You have everything spot on. G,grandfather Matthew disappears after the 1861 census - no marriage and no death certificates. His son was Alexander (Sandy) Geddes born in 1872 - no birth certificate. I pick him up in the 1881 census living with the eldest step-sister and her husband in Greenock.

There is a definite connection between Sandy with the person listed as his mother on his marriage certificate as he lived with her eldest child but the age ratio is 33:47. I know 47 is possible but I am beginning to wonder is it improbable and that Sandy is Matthews by another woman. That is why I am not listing his mother's maiden name as it might 'muddy the waters' and send everybody off on the wrong trail. I tried searching from that side and drew a blank also. Sandy is listed in the 1881 census as Margaret's nephew which could either mean the 'other woman' theory or they did not use the terms 'step-brother' or 'half brother' in those days. On the other hand could the fact that she had Sandy at 47 be the reason she went into ill-health and gave her son to her daughter to bring up???

Everyone's help is greatly appreciated as this section is proving hard to unravel. Once I picked Sandy up in the 1881 census I got everything after that.

Janet,
trying to get to grips with this...

Matthew Geddes b circa 1811 was married twice
1st
to Mary Boyes with son Matthew born 1939

Mary Geddes Ms Boyes died in 1861

2nd
Matthew Geddes widower, married Jane Richardson in 1868.
Jane Richardson was about 20yrs younger than her husband, born circa
1833.
They had another 4 children together before Matthew died in 1884


Matthew b 1839
Appears to be unmarried in 1861 and lives with his parents ( mother is still living)
As he does not fit the profile of Matthew Geddes who married Sarah Rogerson later in 1861, and we cannot identify him after the 1861 census, who was Matthews son?
Where and when was the child born?

Anne

Oh, on his 'wife's' death cert it says "widow of Matthew Geddes". That was in 1890.

OK. I'll try and answer these queries. Anne and Kay - When I started doing the family tree I thought the 1872 death was him. He died from TB away from home and I could understand that because that is tdhe same year my grandfather was born. However, I came across him and his family in the 1871 census and he was born in England and his children's names are different. So I had to rule him out.

The 1923 one is the 'not my relation' Matthew and the 1884 is my great, great grandfather. Thank you for those.

Anne - to answer your question; the records have both sets of parents' names and there is no (deceased) after their names although it is written beside the parent of the bride or groom whose parent is deceased.

The reason I'm sure they are step-children (whether legally or not) is that his wife is 14 years his senior and when the children were born Matthew was only 4 and 6 years old. The children were born in Ireland (I think) but everything else happened in Scotland. I can't find them using her maiden name and there is no indication she was previously married. That is why I was hoping for Matthew's death cert and I could work backwards from there. Complicated or what :-S

Hi Janet,
This may sound like a stupid question, but I am curious
How do you know that Matthew Geddes was still alive in 1874 when his step child/children married?

The birth father's name should be on the marriage cert, not the stepfather.

Any additional info re a stepfather is usually gleaned from the info given on the mother.


Edit
I would expect something like this:
Mother: Jane Geddes
Previously .........
Maiden surname ..........

Unless there is something else which is quite specific, ie "married to" Matthew Geddes, there is no way to tell if he was living or not.


Anne

1872,

Matthew Geddess ----Dumfries,a carter

son of Matthew Geddes a farmer.....age given as 32 and no wife is recorded,!!,,,married blank line.

1923 Lochmaben--- Matthew Geddes age 92 a Farmer,,,,, wife was Sarah Rogerson.
.
----------------------------------------------------unless Matthew died elsewhere?

1884, Lochmaben ---Mattthew Geddes age 72,wife was Jane Richardson,,

Janet,
I lsearched on Scotlands People and there is a matching death.
Have you tried this one?

Geddes, Matthew died 1872 in Dumfries, Dumfries.
He was born within one year of 1839 but no matches with mother's name as Boyes.... often because the mother's name was never enterered onto the SP search criteria

Anne

Hi everyone.

Thank you again for your help yesterday. I did some cross-checking and have now unravelled the 2 Matthews. My Matthew is my great, great, grandfather who married twice. (Mary then Jane)

My great, grandfather Matthew (1839) had 2 step-children and 1 of his own but I'm not trying to trace his marriage at the moment because I don' t know if he did.

What would really help me is a death record. He was alive for the 2 step- children's marriages (no deceased on the records) at 1874 but before 1890 when his 'wife' died. It must have happened in Scotland as the 2 marriages, the birth of his son and the death of his 'wife' all happened in Scotland but for the life of me I can't find it.

A fresh pair of eyes might pick up the obvious. Thank you.

Thank you all very much for all that information. Some of it confirms some of my information, some I haven't heard of before and I'll have to investigate. Kay, you have separated the 2 Matthews. After that my Matthew (great, grandfather) disappears and the other one's records keep popping up. I can't find a marriage or death record for him. I've tried English, Scottish and Irish records but come up blank. He is the son of Matthew and Mary Boyes. The Jane Richardson is his second wife.

Agin, many thanks.

1871 Scotland Census about Matthew Geddes
Name: Matthew Geddes
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Jean Geddes
Gender: Male
Where born: St Mungo, dfriesshire
Registration number: 840/2
Registration district: Lochmaben Landward
Civil parish: Lochmaben
County: Dumfriesshire
Address: Mossside
Occupation: Ag Lab
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 49
Line: 19
Roll: CSSCT1871_184
Household Members:
Name Age
Matthew Geddes 59
Jean Geddes 38
William K Geddes 4
Archibald Geddes 2
Margaret Geddes 11 Mo
John Tait Geddes 4


1881 Scotland Census about Mathew Geddis
Name: Mathew Geddis
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Jean Geddis
Gender: Male
Where born: St Mungo, Dumfriesshire
Registration number: 840
Registration district: Lochmaben
Civil parish: Lochmaben
County: Dumfriesshire
Address: Mossside East
Occupation: A Labourer
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 55
Line: 10
Roll: cssct1881_325
Household Members:
Name Age
Mathew Geddis 70
Jean Geddis 47
Archibald Geddis 13
Margrert Geddis 11
Joseph Geddis 9
Annie Geddis 7


This appears to be the Matthew who married Jane Richardson, so does not appear to be your Matthew after all.
This appears to be the father of your Matthew. So either your Matthew has maybe died and this has been mistranscribed, or Mary died and Matthew snr remarried.
You most definitely need the certificates.

Margaret Geddes

Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

birth: 09 Apr 1870 LOCHMABEN,?DUMFRIES,?SCOTLAND

parents: Matthew Geddes,? Jane Richardson

Annie Richardson Geddes

Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

birth: 30 Aug 1873 LOCHMABEN,?DUMFRIES,?SCOTLAND

parents: Matthew Geddes,? Jane Richardson

Archibald Geddes

Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

birth: 13 Aug 1868 LOCHMABEN,?DUMFRIES,?SCOTLAND

parents: Matthew Geddes,? Jane Richardson

Joseph Geddes

Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

birth: 06 Sep 1871 LOCHMABEN,?DUMFRIES,?SCOTLAND

parents: Matthew Geddes,? Jane Richardson