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Hi again,

I have a copy of the 1881 death certificate:

Death certificate for Mary Gordon - Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
2 July 1881 - 4 Francis Street, Middlesbrough, USD
Mary Gordon
Female
69 years
Widow of John Gordon, labourer
Apoplexy 3 days - coma 2 days, certified by S. McHutcheon, MD
X The mark of Sarah Gordon, daughter in law of deceased, present at the death, East Street, Middlesbrough
Registered 4th July 1881


Although some details match, I am not convinced it is the correct one due to the informant.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Peter

Hi GlasgowLass, thank you for this. Right, I have made a note and will look into the death certificate. And yes, the address in 1865 could be New Dundyvan. Thank you.

I am also interested in finding Ann Smith in 1861 census - if she was in Scotland at this point. Ann was the wife of James Gordon and her father was either James or Bernard Smith and his wife was Agnes Donaghan. Is there a likely family in the 1861 or a likely death for either of them - Agnes had died by 1865.

Very best wishes,

Peter

Peter,
only 1 match to a person called John Gordon who died in Coatbridge in the time frame.
The death is registered in Coatbridge in1860
However ,( and I have never come across this before)...... there is no age for the deceased on the search field?
Enter age 0-120yrs and the match disappears?
As no age is found, it is not possible to say if this male death is an adult or child

I have also tried using various possible birth years within a 10 yr span and still no match.
The two possibilities are
a) no age is recorded on the actual Death Cert
or the more likely scenario could be...
b) the age of the deceased is on the DC but has not been added to the search field on Scotlands People.

Obtaining the DC is the only way to find out

Oh and... the address for James Gordon in 1865?... could it be:
NEW DUNDYVAN?

Thank you GlasgowLass.

Ok, Mary the mother was living with James in Buchanan Street, Old Monkland in 1861 - he was 23 she was 48, and a widow.

Ok, the marriages of the children of John and Mary Gordon in Lanarkshire are:

Mary Gordon, 1857, aged 17 living Steel Street, Coatbridge.

Sarah Gordon, 1863, aged 18 living Buchanan Street, Coatbridge.

James Gordon, 1865, aged 25, living in New Dundgran (that is guess work as the address is difficult to read).

In 1866, James had a daughter Margaret, born at 77 Buchanan Street, and 'Mary Gordon, Grandmother, Present', was the informant. This Margaret appears on the census in 1871 in Middlesbrough confirming the connection.

I should point out that in 1871, Mary is living with her son William in Middlesbrough and is aged 66, so born c. 1805.

Does this help? Thank you so much for this help!

Peter,
I understand that the children of John Gordon and Mary Burns were living in Scotland and some married in Lanarkshire.
However, is there any evidence that the parents were in Scotland at that time?
You say that Mary, the mother was living with your ancestor at 1861.
Where were they living in this census year? Scotland or Middlesborough?

Mary was at the Middlesborough home of her son William at 1871 died in Middlesborough in 1881.

According to Mary's death index, she was born circa 1812.
I would guess that her husband was born within a 10yr period of 1812.
Only 1 man called John Gordon born in this period died in Lanarkshire in the time frame that you give (1857-1861) but you would need to be certain that the Gordon parents lived in Lanarkshire when their children married ( or anywhere else in Scotland)
In what years did the children of John Gordon and Mary Burns marry, and what was the address(es) on their marriage certs?

Edit
I wouldn't get too hung up on spelling of Carr/Kerr .
Even recent ( living) Irish folk don't know what their name is... my mum 's maiden name was always Kerr ( birth and marrige cert) and her brother is a Carr. ( birth and marriage cert)
They have the same parents!
Previous generations also fliuctuated between both.

Ah ok, it seems from my ancestor's daughter's marriages that John died between 1857 and 1863 when he is recorded as a deceased labourer at the latter ceremony. However, James (my ancestor) and his mother are living together in 1861 and Mary, the mother is described as widow, theoretically meaning John Gordon died between 1857 and 1861 in Scotland.

So perhaps not the correct family?

Griffiths Valuation Record Information taken 1862

Tenant
Family Name 1 GORDON
Forename 1 JOHN
Landlord
Family Name 2 MARTIN
Forename 2 MATTHEW
Prefix REP
Location
County ANTRIM
Barony KILCONWAY
Union BALLYMENA
Parish CRAIGS
Townland CRAIGS
Place Name CRAIGS
Place Type TOWNLAND
Publication Details
Position on Page
Printing Date 1862
Act 15&16
Sheet Number 26,27,31,32
Map Reference

From the revision books, hes still at the same address until 1867, when a John Martin took over

http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/ImageResult.aspx

There still no marriage for William & Rose, but it all depends on which church they married in, as only St. Patrick's R.C. in Belfast has records for that date, the rest didn't start keeping records to later.

Thank you GlagowLass and Maura, I have emailed the register office about the death in 1881 ... will keep you updated. And no, we didn't have the other Gordon families so it you have that information, then please send it on. Lovely to see and adds to the wider photograph.

The reason I feel FAIRLY confident that the family in Craigs, Ireland in 1851 are the same family who moved to Coatbridge, Scotland (my branch events moving to Middlesbrough in about 1867) is because, this family (children of John Gordon and Mary Burns) had the following children:

Mary Gordon, born c. 1840 (from marriage in 1857)
Sarah Gordon, born c. 1845 (from marriage in 1863)
James Gordon (my ancestor), born c. 1838 from 1861 census, c. 1840 from his 1865 marriage and when he died in 1876 (born c. 1836 ... however, there is a James Gordon, living with another family in 1851 in Craigs born c. 1834).

Also, William Gordon, in Middlesbrough was born c. 1824 (daughter's birth in 1824 and 1871) and then c. 1829 (1881) and then c. 1831 (1891) ... so he was fairly liberal in his 'ages' and I have not found a death for him. Also, his daughter's marriage in 1859 states his wife was being Rose CARR ... so maybe not KERR?

Does this help confirm these families one way or another?

Peter, the Gordon family in Craigs do not have a son name James on the census & both parents where born in Derry. William was living with his parents and was 17 making his birth c1834, according to the census Glasgowlass posted, William was born c1824 (10 years out) and both he and his mother where born in Co. Down. I cannot find a marriage for a William Gordon to a Rose Kerr in Belfast.

Peter,
Do you have access to the 1851 census fragments in Antrim?
There are a number of Gordon families

Perhaps I am confused but there is another family in Craigs parish

Campbell Gordon 81
Esther Gordon 48
John Gordon 7
Henderson Gordon 4
Roseann Small 30
Peggy A Small 5

Peter,
On the 1871 census, William's mother is lised in the household.
She and William said they were both born in Co Down.

I have included her death info.

Will the DC will give any info re her husband?


I assume that what you are trying to determine is if she was the mother of BOTH James and William Gordon?

EDIT:
Apologies Peter... I see now what it is that you are looking for!

Thank you GlasgowLass, the family in Middlesbrough are my family ... but, just trying to connect them to the family in Ireland.

Peter,
I dont know if you have this..
1861 Scotland Census about William Gordon
Name: William Gordon
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Rose Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration number: 639
Registration District: Dalziel
Civil Parish: Dalziel
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 86 King St
Occupation: Labourer Iron Works
ED: 3
Household Schedule Number: 29
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1861_95
Household Members:
Name Age
William Gordon 37 b Ireland
Rose Gordon 39 b Ireland
Mary Ann Gordon 8 b Ireland
Sarah Gordon 3 b Motherwell
Robert Mcgee 22 lodger b Ireland

The family moved to Middlesborough by 1871 but Rose has been replaced by a younger model named Ellen?


1871 England Census about William Gordon
Name: William Gordon
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elen Gordon
Mother's Name: Mary Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Middlesborough
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration District: Stockton
Sub-registration District: Yarm Civil Parish, Township or Place
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household Schedule Number: 27
Piece: 4889
Folio: 8
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
William Gordon 46
Elen Gordon 25
Sarah Gordon 14
James Gordon 7 b Lanark
Margaret Gordon 2 Weeks b Middlesborough
Mary Gordon 66 MOTHER. B Co DOWN

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about Mary Gordon
Name: Mary Gordon
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1881
Age at Death: 69
Registration District: Middlesbrough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 343

I haven't found them at 1881 yet but this is the family at 1891


1891 England Census about Wm Gordon
Name: Wm Gordon
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellin Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: *****Down, Ireland *****
Civil Parish: Linthorpe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Middlesborough
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address
Registration District: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration District: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4012
Folio: 123
Page Number: 32
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Gordon 60 b Co DOWN **
Ellin Gordon 44 b LEITRIM
Margaret Gordon 20 daughter b England
Wm Gordon 14 son b England
Ellen Gordon 8 daughter England

1901 England Census about Ellen Gordon
Name: Ellen Gordon
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Middlesbrough
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration District: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration District: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 39
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 143
Piece: 4578
Folio: 168
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Gordon 54 Widow. B Ireland
William Gordon 23
Ellen Gordon 18

Noreen,
This should have been started as a separate thread.
Could you please clarify the dates for George Raymond.
Born 1897 appearing on an 1850 census ?

Noreen, I am not sure where to start but you are best off starting your own thread as people will only be on here looking for my original request. Good luck!

William Gordon the son of John and Mary ... basically, I have a family seeming to match this family from the 1851 census. I have a birth certificate from Scotland saying William Gordon (son of John Gordon and Mary Burns) married Rose Kerr in Belfast in 1851.

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND CAPT GEORGE RAYMOND..BORN 1897 LONDON...HE WAS MARRIED TWICE IN LONDON.ONE WIFE WAS MARIA TUCKFIELD 2ND WIFE..AND AS HE WAS IN THE COASTGUARD IN 1860..AND LOCATED IN LACKEN CO MAYO IRELAND...HE ALSO HAD LOTS OF CHILDREN BORN HERE AND LONDON BY BOTH WIFES..ALL I AM TRYING TO FIND IS WHERE THEY WERE BORN AS ON THE CENSUS FOR 1850 IT STATES CHILDREN ..BORN IRELAND..BRITISH SUBJECTS...AND THEN THE CONFUSION KICKS IN..THAT HE WAS LIVING IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND..SO HE WAS CAPT GEORGE RAYMOND..H.M.S SHANNON.SO WOULD ANYONE HAVE A HINT OF WHERE I MIGHT START FOR THE BIRTHS IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND AND MAYO.IRELAND..PLEASE.........NOREEN.

Who married Rose Kerr in Belfast 1851?

Thank you Maura ... just seen this. Not been online for sometime.

The family were RC and I THINK moved to Coatbridge, near Glasgow, in Scotland, at least by 1855 when William Gordon seems to have had a daughter there (who was married in Belfast in 1851 to Rose Kerr).

I descend from James, born c. 1836 (but a little older and living away from this family according to the census). He died later in Middlesbrough, so the family are quite far flung.

Also, found marriages for sisters Mary and Sarah in Coatbridge, Scotland, but NOTHING for Jane, John or Robert (who of course, may have died in Ireland), and this is ONLY if there two families are the one and same!

Is there a way to prove it?

None of John & Mary's childrens baptism are coming up, nor a baptism that would fit Ann's. But not all church records are online, alot are still held in the custody of the church. So depending on their religion you would have to find out which chuch they belonged too.