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Joonie! Fantastic - how did you find that 1861 reference. I couldn't find it all. Wow, how odd. Please, where did you get this?

Amazing.

And yeah, we already the 1841 but not problem - good to confirm.

Mary's age fluctuates then then older she gets. Would still like to find a baptism.

Now, RE Timothy, I didn't find a reference for him, BUT in the 1841 in English Damside (same address as Mary and her sons) there is a Daniel Booth, a sawyer ... maybe?!

Or to far a speculation?

am I retreading old ground?

Mary in 1841 with children Samuel and Joseph

Name: Mary Booth
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Where born: Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: St Cuthbert
County/Island: Cumberland
Registration district: Carlisle

Mary Booth 40
Samuel Booth 25 forge man
Joseph Booth 12


this is very probably Jane Edgar in 1841 a couple of pages away from Mary Booth

Name: Jane Batey
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: St Cuthbert
Hundred: Cumberland
County/Island: Cumberland
Registration district: Carlisle

Jane Tiffin 55 independent means
Ellen Jardine 25 "
Jane Batey 20 "
Margaret Tiffin 15
Catharine Tiffin 15 milliner
Michael Tiffin 20 farmer
Thomas Tiffin 1

independent means seems odd and I wonder whether it is a euphemism

they never strayed far ... Jane's address is Harrington Court and addresses of English Damside are on the same page


in 1861, Samuel is in Eston, Yorkshire, a game keeper, with wife Eleanor


so it looks like Timothy, if he existed, died before 1841, and before 1837 since there is no death in the GRO index post 1837

trying to get head back around this ... :-)

that is the right Mary Booth on the death certificate

1861 census has
> Jane Edgar with address English Damside, aged 38, labourer's widow
in household directly above
> Mary Booth, 3 English Damside, aged 84 (1777), widow, keeping boarders

occupation for Timothy would definitely be sawyer (it would be unusual for a barrister or solicitor to be called 'lawyer' in 19th century census)


for Samuel, for instance this death

Deaths Mar 1893
Booth Samuel 84 Middlesbro' 9d 377

would match his address on the death cert and make him born about 1809


yes, here he is in 1891

Name: Samuel Booth
Age: 82
Estimated birth year: abt 1809
Relation: Head
> Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: Eston
Town: Grangetown
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Middlesbrough

Samuel Booth 82 living on own means
William Booth 21 son, born Yorkshire
Catherine M Booth 25 daughter married, born Yorkshire
Evan Williams 25 son in law, steel worker
Margaret E Booth 6 granddaughter

(obviously some surname confusions)


someone here at genesreunited has Samuel Booth 1811 Carlisle in their family tree

.

I thought so - more likely than a lawyer I thought.

With that, I did look for him in the census but nothing BUT found a Daniel Booth, Sawyer living in the same street as Mary Booth in 1841 - any thoughts on this?

Without looking for any records, Sawyer could be correct ie someone who operates a steam or other powered saw.

Finally got the death certificate - the age is wrong but certainly seems to be the right one otherwise:

Seventeenth March 1864 English Damside, Carlisle
Mary Booth
Female
82 years
Widow of Timothy Booth, a Saywer (LAWYER?)
Obstruction of bowls certified
Samuel Booth, present at the death, Easent Junction, Middlesbro'
Seventeenth March 1864

So, who is Timothy Booth? Any ideas?

Haha it is never ending but thank you again for the help with this.

Peter

Hi again,

After calling the register office and looking for a death record, I sadly had a very unhelpful assistant. She was quite rude actually. Anyway, could we try and find a burial for Mary in Carlisle?

Thank you,

Peter

That makes sense! With you now :)

Yeah, I need to make a few phone calls tomorrow.

Just been looking for a baptism in Kirklinton, but nothing really jumping out.

Also looked for Mary Booth/Hardy but nothing there also in Alston! Ahhhhh!

the question: whether Jane Edgar was the married daughter of Mary Hardy/Booth :-)

Jane Edgar's place of birth as shown in the 1851 census in the prison might help, I don't know.

But the birth certificate of the child of parents Jane and Matthew Edgar, who were in the prison together, apparently, would tell you Jane's original surname !

haha sorry which question was that? It is late and my head is tired!

Well! that's interesting. I looked for a marriage at freebmd and familysearch but FS didn't show me that christening, or I wasn't paying attention.

I wonder whether the child died after birth

Births Sep 1852
Edgar Margaret Carlisle 10b 338

Deaths Sep 1852
EDGAR Margaret Carlisle 10b 243

that birth cert would answer your question anyway :-)

No I didn't notice that ... thank you JoonieClooney! but I have just found this:

Matthew Edgar

Father

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


spouse: Jane
child: Margaret Edgar
Name Margaret Edgar
Gender Female
Christening Date 15 Aug 1852
Christening Place SAINT CUTHBERT,CARLISLE,CUMBERLAND,ENGLAND
Birth Date
Birthplace
Death Date 15 Sep 1852
Name Note
Race
Father's Name Matthew Edgar

the prisoner right above Jane Edgar in the list, not sure whether you noticed

Name: Matthew Edgar
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Prisoner
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Longtown, Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: English Street
County/Island: Cumberland
married, agricultural labourer


in 1861 Jane Edgar is a widowed lodging house keeper

Name: Jane Edgar
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: 1818
Relation: Head
Where born: Kirklinton, Cumberland, England

Civil Parish: St Mary Within
County/Island: Cumberland
Registration District: Carlisle

she did have a son with her:

Name: William Edgar
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: 1845
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Jane Edgar
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Jane Edgar 43
William Edgar 16
William Batey 21 >> nephew
David Murray Linton 20
Thomas Stewardson 18
George Wells Graham 52


ah, interesting, in 1851 Jane got enumerated at home too (I wondered whether where William was would tell us anything)

Civil Parish: Castle Street
County/Island: Cumberland
Jane Edgar 34 - widowed lodging housekeeper
William Edgar 6
David Baly 25 >> brother (looks like Baty)
John Armstrong 29
Grainger Oliphant 30


so unless this is a different Jane from the prisoner, which seems quite unlikely, she was born Baty or Batey it seems

Marriages Mar 1841
BATY Jane Carlisle 25 31
EDGAR Robert Carlisle 25 31

Hmmm interesting - yes, i had seen the 1864 death and suspected that was Mary. Really need to call the Register Office tomorrow.

And your theory on Jane Edgar is interesting. I wonder?!

And I hope I am on the right track with this if there are other Hardy families in the area. Do you think so?

Peter

I wonder?

Name: Mary Booth
Event Type: Death
Event Date: 1864
Event Place: Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Age:
Birth Date:
Page: 302
Volume: 10
Registration Quarter: 1
Affiliate Line Number: 7

Unfortunately no age or date of birth.

Going back to prison record from ancestry, I noted that there was a Jane Edgar (prostitute) who was imprisoned with Mary.
I was wondering if this could have been her daughter Jane whose baptism record I found. Date of birth fits but have no marriage yet to proove it is her????

As for Joseph baptised 1845, it is possible that mother Margaret was Mary's daughter, but there are other Hardys living in the same area at the same time so, although it is possible it could also be another family.

Really? I grew up on Coronation street! Small world indeed :)

And thank you and everyone else for your help here! Will get back to it!

My parents were both born in North Ormesby, (Smeaton Street and Stephenson Street). They moved to an area not far from Ormesby, (top of Ormesby Road), over 50yrs ago and my Dad still lives there. Although I now live in France my brother lives in Ormesby.
What a small world. :-)

Oh wow - just saw the other prisoners. Yeah, they are also mentioned in the newspaper articles but in as much detail as Mary Booth/Hardy ... not sure why. The newspaper quote Mary or 'Old Mally' as saying her house with never be closed as too many respectable men frequent it. And how some of her clients were going to build her a house in the country ... !

Also thought this might be of interest (marriage of people Samuel Booth is staying with in 1851):

John Sidney Hall

England Marriages, 1538–1973

marriage: 8 December 1827 Saint Mary Carlisle, Cumberland, England

spouse: Isabella Graham

No obvious connection though.

Also found the baptism of a Joseph Hardy in Carlisle on 19 Oct. 1845 to Margaret Hardy ... Mary's daughter, baptised 1831?!

And I am from Middlesbrough, North Ormesby specifically but I parents now live in Ormesby! I work away a LOT but always return back!

good job -- just do a second one for Hardy (which is an excellent idea, I add birth surnames to the records for all my female ancestors).

Also, I always add big explanation notes - you can state your relationship/interest, say who the husband/children were, etc., and also if you have a permanent online email address that you don't mind making public, include that. (I have done it for years and never got any spam from it although I do it in the format 'name at mail dot com'.)

The corrections don't show up in search results yet (i.e. searching for Mary Booth doesn't find her) but that usually takes a few days or a couple of weeks I think.

Doing a second 'alternate info' means that searching for her as Hardy will also find her in future. You could also do that on any of her other census records of course :-)