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http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1345032

Thanks Alviegirl, I had that previously but good to confirm the John/Joseph bit, Brokers were inlaws (married to Georgiana ) & Austins marry into them tho' a bit later

Yes that is the right family, they came from Totnes looks like they moved abt 1827 from birthplaces

For ref


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Alfred John Packer
Name: Alfred John Packer, ostler of full age
Spouse: Annie Carroll, minor
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Mar 1874
Parish: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John Packer, wheelwright
Spouse Father: Patrick Carroll, dec farmer
Register Type: Parish Register


P Austin? and Ann Broker/Booker were witnesses.


He is also known as Alfred Joseph Packer.


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Alfred Joseph Packer
Name: Alfred Joseph Packer
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Oct 1850
Father's Name: John Alfred Packer
Mother's name: Eliza Packer
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Marylebone

Maybe you'd all like a go at this one, moving on a generation, JA and Eliza's firstborn was Alfred John born 1850, bapt St Mary's Marylebone 6/10/1850, censused 1851,1861 with the family, 1871 at Aldershot in the army then marries Annie Carroll 2/3/1874 at St Marylebone possibly b Liverpool 1856 of Irish parents. AJ 's occupation is given as Ostler.
No sign of either of them after that save for a JA and Annie in Meaford Ontario in 1881 although the ages are a bit adrift.

JoonieCloonie, SylvainCanada and others many thanks, looks like you've cracked it. JA's first wife (married 1/5/1842) was Charlotte Heath b Totnes, they had 3 kids Alfred Joseph 1844-5, John Henry 1845 -abt 1883 and Charlotte Elizabeth 1846-1916. In 1851 Charlotte is censused with uncle Thos Parry in St Clements. Can't find her after that until Charlotte Elizabeth marries in 1870

Joonie ...............

I looked at most of those, and they all seemed to rule themselves out ................ eg, a Watchmaker's Wife, Cabdriver's Wife


or Unmarried .......................


Charlotte could have been included in the unmarried, of course!

so it seems we have solved Peter's problem


found parents of Eliza


found what probably happened to Charlotte ........ which would be proved if he wanted to buy her death certificate


and answered the question of why he did not marry Eliza ............. he couldn't

I can't find a C P that looks to be her in 1861, either

in 1861 there are also several CPs of the right age bracket in the Middlesex County Lunatic Asylum in Norwood Middlesex and in Friern Barnet Middlesex

all can only be speculation I'm afraid since none shows a Devon birthplace

by googling ..................


----------
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.britain/X0G9E6xXAtk

John Townsend
May 20 2014

I have come across Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Bow, having just written a
book which included a chapter about someone who was a patient in 1861 and
committed suicide there in 1868. From page 87:
"Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum was situated at Fairfield Road, Bow. In 1859 it
was licensed by Edward Byas and cared for a roughly even division of private
and pauper patients, but by 1867 there were on average 216 mentally ill
soldiers in residence for whom no provision had yet been made by the
Government. For 257 male patients there were 15 day attendants and one
night attendant, having no other duty. The therapeutic arrangements seem
to have been of a high standard, according to a contemporary report."

The source for that information was, mostly, Andrew Roberts, The Lunacy
Commission, section 3.5, http://studymore.org.uk/01.htm (accessed 10
December 2013).
---------

aha, I looked for CPs but didn't see that one ... because that was what I had in mind

there are so many in 1861, and with place of birth so often unknown or just assumed, and a person could have been placed anywhere within miles ...

I think the death cert is the only thing that would tell anything useful, if Peter does want to know

Correct name could be Grove Hall Asylum, Bow ........... but I went all the way back to the first page, and all it said was Public Institution, Grove Hall Bow

Could Charlotte have been put into an asylum or workhouse????



??????? for example


1851 Census

Name: C P
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Patient
Gender: Female
Civil Parish: Stratford le Bow
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bow
ED, institution, or vessel: Grove Hall Bow
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 1555
Folio: 240
Page Number: 10




says nothing on the image, except Married

possibly it was Charlotte who did the running off
or John did and exercised his prerogative of taking the children

and either way, the two kids got parked with his mother while he partnered with Eliza and had a bunch more :-)

Charlotte's death certificate might provide some insight

but as her death was registered under Packer it suggests maybe she wasn't using another surname

it's also possible Charlotte became ill and incapacitated, mentally or physically, and John was left with two young children he needed to have cared for by his mother ...

John Henry and Charlotte Elizabeth both marry in London in 1870

so not repartnered :-)


and 1861

Name: Joh H Packer
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: 1843
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Christchurch

> Elizabeth Packer 61
> Ester S Packer 34
> Henry L Packer 23
Sarah Howard 67 (see in the 1851 Sylvia posted above) sister of Elizabeth Packer
* Joh H Packer 18
* Elizabeth M Packer 15 (must be Charlotte Elizabeth) granddaughter


They are with John Alfred Packer's family from the 1841

Joseph Packer 47
> Elizabeth 40
Jemima 20
> Hester 12
> Henry 2
Eliza 1
Henry 17 Weaver


... so maybe Charlotte is repartnered elewhere ...

????????? John Henry and Charlotte Elizabeth are living with ?? grandmother Sarah Howard in Marylebone

1851 Census

Name Age
Sarah Howard 77 Widow
Sarah T Howard 57 Widow
Esther Sophia Parker 24 Widow
John Henry Parker 8 Grandson
Charlotte Elizth Parker 5 Granddaughter




?????????????? it is Parker on the image???????

Charlotte and children are very likely in the census with another partner under his name ... a woman with 3 children would likely have repartnered soon, if she wasn't the one who left the marriage for another partner in the first place


edit

they were in Marylebone in the mid-1840s

Births Sep 1844
Packer Alfred Joseph Marylebone 1 163
Deaths Mar 1845
PACKER Alfred Joseph Marylebone 1 162

she died in Hackney

Deaths Dec 1862
PACKER Charlotte Hackney 1b 277

so ................


where are the Packer - Heath children in 1851???


John Henry Packer
1843 – 1883

Alfred Joseph Packer
1844 – 1845

Charlotte Elizabeth Packer
1846 – 1916






Did she take them with her