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Auriel, to repeat questions.

You have the certificate of the marriage - can you gives us every detail, however minor it might seem?!

so witnesses....occupations, fathers, where, addresses at time of wedding.

There are some trees on Ancestry but the one I have looked at is so vague - marriage "between 1926 and 1958" which puts Florence aged 12 at the time of the marriage!!!!

It does give her father as Thomas James and her a middle name of Eleanor

It also gives her death on 27 December 1997 and a birth of 04 December 1914

which means they are using this one

Name: Florence Helena Clarke
Birth Date: 4 Dec 1914
Date of Registration: Dec 1997
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Bromsgrove
Inferred County: Worcestershire
Register Number: 8
District and Subdistrict: 5121
Entry Number: 129

Jude

I haven't any subs at the moment, but has anyone checked the railway employment records on Ancestry?

Good morning everyone. Thanks for starting on this soooo early.
Right here goes what little help I have.
For HeyJudeB4 Beatles - This is everything from the marriage certificate.
Bromsgrove in the county of Worcestershire
27.7.1955
Thomas Ernest Clarke aged 52 years previous marriage dissolved railway blacksmith of Sunnyholme Caravan Home Hollywood son of Thomas Clarke (deceased) a lorry driver salesman (mineral waters).
Florence Helena Froggatt aged 40 years spinster no profession Sunnyholme Caravan Home Hollywood daughter of Thomas James Froggatt a retired handcuff maker.
In the presence of J A Poyner and F A Poyner.

That's it.
We know all about Granny Florence even I knew her and her family is traced back to Elizabethan times but it's Grandad Ernie who is a major problem. His daughter explained he was pretty monosyllabic, in fact she only knows about his sister from a single conversation, he once said he played cricket with Edward VIII but that sounded mad and someone came to see him when she was little to tell him his maiden aunts had died in a freak accident when cooking and got gassed. Those three stories don't exactly help with the family tree. We also know he lived in sin at the caravan home as both his children were born before the marriage.
Oh, they lived in the caravan home because they'd been bombed out during the war and they never moved back into the city.
Right, that's it I'm empty.
It wasn't much help was it? Thanks so much everyone. :-(

It may be a big help! :-)

Flip - yes have looked on Ancestry at railway records but will look a bit more deeply now....

This father Thomas is a lorry driver/salesman

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Thomas Clarke Head Married Male 30 1881 Warwickshire Driver Salesman Transcription
Florence Clarke Wife Married Female 32 1879 Warwickshire - Transcription
Thomas Clarke Son - Male 9 1902 Warwickshire School Transcription
John Nicholls Father In Law Widower Male 68 1843 Leicestershire Rule Maker Transcription
Beatrice Dodwell Boarder Single Female 19 1892 Warwickshire Pressworker Tra

Jude

Thanks Jude
This sounds interesting and the job certainly matches but Warwickshire is a long way from Dudley. I'm going to make a note of it anyway, you never know where a link may come from. Is this the 1911 census?
. :-)

Yes - it's mistranscribed big time on Ancestry (this is from FMP) - it's not water though it's oil (Anglo American).

Aston is about 16 miles; King's Norton about 12 - about a quarter of my family come from that area. One difficulty is that they are on the cusp of county borders so sometimes Worcester, sometimes Staffordshire.

It's the nearest that I have found for an occupation - most of them seem to be miners or iron workers.

The first marriage would be helpful! I guess you don't have any ideas?

Jude

No Jude, we didn't even know he'd been married before until we unearthed that certificate. Annoying isn't it?
Even Grandma Florence didn't know (or just never mentioned it).
We know they met when they were working for GWR as she had a horse and cart doing deliveries and he was working on the engines.
Thanks for trying though, it's appreciated. :-)

Thanks everyone. I've gone through the actual census returns that you've told me about and linked them up with other messages. Elizabeth Watts may be his mother. Just because it says John Thomas Clarke on the marriage doesn't mean he wasn't known as Thomas. His son was Thomas Ernest and known as Ernie. Maybe I'm just clutching at straws but it still seems possible. :-(

Grandma Florence must have known he'd been married before - it was on the marriage cert she signed. And don't discount him being born out of the area you thought - he was obviously living "in sin" as you put it so may be out of his original area? Have you tried to find divorce records - not that many exist for that period?

Thank you. I've not had any divorce record success yet. I hadn't thought about Grandma Florence knowing but you are right, of course she would have known! I'm fairly confident about the Dudley, he did admit to coming from there and was a West Bromwich Albion fan. Thanks for having a think for me and pointing out stuff! :-D

I was thinking- if the Watts family is correct then the maiden Aunts could be Phoebe Annie, and Alice Malvina? However, I don't see their deaths/ marriage to confirm this. There is often a little truth in the stories that get passed on

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
9 Gammage St Dudley, Dudley, Staffordshire, England
Abigail Watts Head Widow Female 71 1840 Wordley Staffs Housekeeper
Elizabeth Clarke Daughter Widow Female 37 1874 Harts Hill Worcs Tailoress
Phoebe Annie Watts Daughter Single Female 32 1879 Harts Hill Worcs Tailoress
Alice Malvina Watts Daughter Single Female 28 1883 Harts Hill Worcs Tailoress
James William Watts Grandson Single Male 20 1891 Harts Hill Shoeing Smith Assistant
Miram Clarke Granddaughter - Female 14 1897 Ripton Barntree Staffs School
Horace Clarke Grandson - Male 7 1904 Barntree Staffs

Oh wow, thanks Gritty. I'll take a look at that and your idea may be right too about the ladies. I do hope this is the right branch because it seems to be really coming together.
:-)

Doesn't really help but Thomas Ernest lived with Florence's family for a bit:

1950 Electoral register:
197 Kitts Green Road, Stechford
Froggatt Thomas J
Clarke Thomas E
Clarke Florence H
Froggatt Annie E

Florence was living there in 1945 (Under Froggatt surname), but no Thomas Clarke listed there for that year.

Wow, that's amazing. I have been trying to do this for ten years and you've already found out more in a single weekend. I must have been looking in all the wrong places. You are rapidly becoming my favourite person on the Internet. How do you find out about electoral rolls - I thought they were private? :-D

It's always easy when you know how!

Historical Midlands/ Birmingham Electoral registers are on Ancestry (1832- 1955)

Unfortunately I don't think they cover Dudley- however, Staffordshire central library should hold historical electoral registers for the area (although I think they may only be searchable by address- but not sure on that)

In 1952 Thomas disappears from 197 Kitts Green Road, but Florence is still there:

1952 Electoral register:
197 Kitts Green Road, Stechford
Froggatt, Thomas J
Clarke, Florence H

Thank you, that's a day trip for me sometime. I will try to order the birth certificate for the Thomas Ernest you have found in Tipton and then added to with many Watts as I know the date of birth 20th Dec, that should be on there and then we can say it's him for certain. :-)

I think getting the birth certificate might be the only way forward, and, as you say, at least you have the date to confirm if it's correct.

...and if it's not right at least you won't be wasting time on the wrong family.

I'll keep having a look and if I spot anything I'll let you know.

Thank you again, you have been most kind.
I'm going to disappear now and write this all up plus order a birth certificate. I'll keep watching the thread in case you do find anything and of course I'll post an update when I have one.
Best regards and good luck with your own family research. ;-)

Thanks to everyone who helped with this a few weeks back. I have just received his birth certificate based on your help and my knowledge of his birthday day and month (though not year until you stepped in). Anyway, the birth certificate matches. I have the beginning of a great adventure in front of me and my partner is already asking me to research as much as I can tonight so he can take it to his Mum's tomorrow and surprise her.
You are marvellous people, consider yourselves hugged. :-D