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Thanks everyone. I've gone through the actual census returns that you've told me about and linked them up with other messages. Elizabeth Watts may be his mother. Just because it says John Thomas Clarke on the marriage doesn't mean he wasn't known as Thomas. His son was Thomas Ernest and known as Ernie. Maybe I'm just clutching at straws but it still seems possible. :-(

No Jude, we didn't even know he'd been married before until we unearthed that certificate. Annoying isn't it?
Even Grandma Florence didn't know (or just never mentioned it).
We know they met when they were working for GWR as she had a horse and cart doing deliveries and he was working on the engines.
Thanks for trying though, it's appreciated. :-)

Yes - it's mistranscribed big time on Ancestry (this is from FMP) - it's not water though it's oil (Anglo American).

Aston is about 16 miles; King's Norton about 12 - about a quarter of my family come from that area. One difficulty is that they are on the cusp of county borders so sometimes Worcester, sometimes Staffordshire.

It's the nearest that I have found for an occupation - most of them seem to be miners or iron workers.

The first marriage would be helpful! I guess you don't have any ideas?

Jude

Thanks Jude
This sounds interesting and the job certainly matches but Warwickshire is a long way from Dudley. I'm going to make a note of it anyway, you never know where a link may come from. Is this the 1911 census?
. :-)

It may be a big help! :-)

Flip - yes have looked on Ancestry at railway records but will look a bit more deeply now....

This father Thomas is a lorry driver/salesman

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Thomas Clarke Head Married Male 30 1881 Warwickshire Driver Salesman Transcription
Florence Clarke Wife Married Female 32 1879 Warwickshire - Transcription
Thomas Clarke Son - Male 9 1902 Warwickshire School Transcription
John Nicholls Father In Law Widower Male 68 1843 Leicestershire Rule Maker Transcription
Beatrice Dodwell Boarder Single Female 19 1892 Warwickshire Pressworker Tra

Jude

Good morning everyone. Thanks for starting on this soooo early.
Right here goes what little help I have.
For HeyJudeB4 Beatles - This is everything from the marriage certificate.
Bromsgrove in the county of Worcestershire
27.7.1955
Thomas Ernest Clarke aged 52 years previous marriage dissolved railway blacksmith of Sunnyholme Caravan Home Hollywood son of Thomas Clarke (deceased) a lorry driver salesman (mineral waters).
Florence Helena Froggatt aged 40 years spinster no profession Sunnyholme Caravan Home Hollywood daughter of Thomas James Froggatt a retired handcuff maker.
In the presence of J A Poyner and F A Poyner.

That's it.
We know all about Granny Florence even I knew her and her family is traced back to Elizabethan times but it's Grandad Ernie who is a major problem. His daughter explained he was pretty monosyllabic, in fact she only knows about his sister from a single conversation, he once said he played cricket with Edward VIII but that sounded mad and someone came to see him when she was little to tell him his maiden aunts had died in a freak accident when cooking and got gassed. Those three stories don't exactly help with the family tree. We also know he lived in sin at the caravan home as both his children were born before the marriage.
Oh, they lived in the caravan home because they'd been bombed out during the war and they never moved back into the city.
Right, that's it I'm empty.
It wasn't much help was it? Thanks so much everyone. :-(

I haven't any subs at the moment, but has anyone checked the railway employment records on Ancestry?

Auriel, to repeat questions.

You have the certificate of the marriage - can you gives us every detail, however minor it might seem?!

so witnesses....occupations, fathers, where, addresses at time of wedding.

There are some trees on Ancestry but the one I have looked at is so vague - marriage "between 1926 and 1958" which puts Florence aged 12 at the time of the marriage!!!!

It does give her father as Thomas James and her a middle name of Eleanor

It also gives her death on 27 December 1997 and a birth of 04 December 1914

which means they are using this one

Name: Florence Helena Clarke
Birth Date: 4 Dec 1914
Date of Registration: Dec 1997
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Bromsgrove
Inferred County: Worcestershire
Register Number: 8
District and Subdistrict: 5121
Entry Number: 129

Jude

Sorry Jude- had just edited my post- SNAP!! Now having doubts on this one

If the Watts connection is correct...then this is the only marriage I can find that vaguely fits..

Marriages Dec 1895 (>99%)
Bate Charles Major Dudley 6c 42 Scan available - click to view
Clark John Thomas Dudley 6c 42 Scan available - click to view
Share Ann Jane Dudley 6c 42 Scan available - click to view
Watts Elizabeth Dudley 6c 42 Scan available - click to view

i.e. father saying he was John Thomas not Thomas Ernest!!

Jude

Auriel- who were the witnesses on the marriage? Where is states 'previous marriage dissolved'- does it refer to Thomas E or Florence H?

Is father Thomas, mineral water salesman, listed as deceased on the marriage?

I'm now having some doubts on the info above- this looks to be the marriage of Elizabeth Watts- although her husband was listed as Thomas on the 1901 census, he is listed as John Thomas on his marriage:

Marriage:
Name: Elizabeth Watts
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Age: 22
Birth Date: 1873
Marriage Date: 2 Nov 1895
Marriage Place: St. Edmund'S Dudley, Worcester, England
Father: John Watts
Spouse: John Thomas Clark
FHL Film Number: 992184
Reference ID: Yr 1895 P 148 No 295

Also- Elizabeth is listed as a widow in 1911- so not sure where the mineral water salesman would come into it?? I'll take another look at this later

Horace Clarke
Birth Date: 30 Sep 1903
Date of Registration: Dec 1974
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Dudley
Inferred County: Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 33
Page: 0492


Maybe?

Horace Clarke
Spouse Surname: Taylor, Eva G
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1931
Registration district: Stourbridge
Inferred County: Worcestershire
Volume Number: 6c
Page Number: 12

Eva Graham Clarke
Birth Date: 10 Mar 1904
Date of Registration: Aug 1985
Age at Death: 81
Registration district: Coventry
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 33
Page: 125

Thomas Clarke
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 34
Registration district: Dudley
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6c
Page: 37

I have never seen the 1911 entry for Ernest Clarke with his uncle. That really links well with what you have found so far. I'm really impressed but have to go to bed. will pop back in the morning. Thank you very much Gritty. Have shown my partner what you have achieved and he's very excited. :-)
Goodnight.

Thanks Gritty
That links well with your data from 1901 census. He could have lied about being 52 on his marriage certificate in 1955 because his wife was 40 and he reduced the age difference a bit.
Glitterbaby I'm sorry but we just presume that he was called Ernest (Ernie) because his father was called Thomas to prevent confusion.
Thomas Clarke (his dad, the 'mineral water salesman') was listed as deceased on that marriage certificate.
Thanks again.

Sister's death? Age fits with above 1901 census

First name(s) MIRIAM
Last name CLARKE
Gender Female
Birth year 1896
Age 22
Death quarter 4
Death year 1918
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Volume 6B
Page 2154
Country England
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miriam in 1911?

Name: Miram Clarke
Age in 1911: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Relation to Head: Granddaughter
Birth Place: Burntree, Staffordshire
Civil Parish: Dudley
County/Island: Worcestershire
Street address: 9 Gammage St, Blowers Green, Dudley, Worcestershire
Occupation: school
Registration district: Dudley
Registration District Number: 372
Sub-registration district: Dudley
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Household schedule number: 189
Piece: 17457

Abigail Watts 71
Elizabeth Clarke 37
Pheobe Annie Watts 32
Alice Malvina Watts 28
James William Watts 20
Miram Clarke 14
Horace Clarke 7

I only see one other possible sibling- Horace
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas in 1911?
Name: Ernest Clarke
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Harts Hill Nr Brierley Hill, Worcestershire
Civil Parish: Dudley
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street address: No 17 Vine St, Harts Hill Near Brierley Hill
Occupation: school
Registration district: Dudley
Registration District Number: 372
Sub-registration district: Dudley
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Household schedule number: 103
Piece: 17456
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Watts 42
Mary Jane Watts 40
Ernest Clarke 12
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why was he called Grand dad Ernie and not Tom?

Sorry no, we don't even know her name. He only mentioned her once in his life when his daughter was thinking of names for my partner before he was born and he said no to one of them because it was his sister's name and he couldn't bear that. Not helpful for you is it?

Auriel do you have an age for the sister who died young?

Right, properly digested.
The Thomas Ernest Charles Clarke you've found from 1904 in Dudley Gritty is one I've found before too but he has brothers and sisters and Grandad Ernie had no family that anyone knew of except a sister who died when young. The death registered in Bromsgrove is our Thomas Ernest with the errors previously mentioned. Told you this was the ultimate challenge!
Thanks again to you, Yvonne, Gritty and Shirley. :-\