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I have the marriage cert for John Oakes, age 21 in October 1914. Father Samuel, but no Oakes witness to the marriage (?deceased). Marriage at new church in Manchester (Houghton Memorial/St Jerome's), John and bride Alice Prestage married from ?temporary addresses next door to one another. No likely John Oakes 1893 in 1911 Census for Manchester/ Chorlton. There are far too many Oakes in Cheshire/Lancashire, and a strong possible from numerous Oakes in Aston, Birmingham. The Birmingham possible is John Frederick Oakes, father John Samuel Oakes, down as John in Census.

John and Alice has several children (presumably, all Oakes mother Prestage) from 1914 to 1922. What's my next step? Do I get the birth certificate of one or more of the children, to get more information about John Oakes 1893. How much information would there be in 1914?

This enquiry on behalf of a friend trying to trace her male line back.

Hugh Wolfson

What are the occupations of John and his father please?

Dea x

I have it:

Marriage: 10 Oct 1914 Houghton Memorial, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
John Oakes - 21, Solid Type Builder, Bachelor, 56 Blackthorn St.
Alice Prestage - 23, Spinster, 54 Blackthorn St.
Groom's Father: Samuel Oakes, Vulcanizer
Bride's Father: Ralph Prestage, Carter
Witness: Edwin Jones; Mary Prestage
Married by Banns by: Samuel Sidebotham Rector
Register: Marriages 1914 - 1915, Page 16, Entry 32
Source: Original Register

Dea x

there is this one 1911 but age is out

Name: John Oakes
Age in 1911: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Hulme, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Search Photos: Search for 'South Manchester' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 30 Ogden St Hulme
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Chorlton ------------------------
Registration District Number: 464
Sub-registration district: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Piece: 23900
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Oakes 40
John Oakes 15
Samuel Oakes 13
Fredrick Oakes 9
Nelly Oakes 7
Ogle 37

1901
Name: John H Oakes
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Samuel Oakes
Mother: Nelly Oakes
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Search Photos: Search for 'South Manchester' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: Hulme St Michael
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 40
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3705
Folio: 106
Page Number: 37
Household schedule number: 219
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Oakes 30
Nelly Oakes 29
Lily A Oakes 7
John H Oakes 5
Samuel Oakes 3

could be him 1901 census


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Jane Oakes Head Widow Female 70 1831 - Buglawton, Cheshire, England Transcription
John Oakes Grand Son Single Male 8 1893 - Cheshire, England

????


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
5, Garratt Street, North Manchester, Prestwich, Lancashire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Samuel J Oakes Head Married Male 33 1868 Rubber Worker Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Mary Oakes Wife Married Female 33 1868 Cotton Reeler Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
William Molloy Cousin Single Male 20 1881 Machinist (Under Clothing Etc) Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Hugh Molloy Uncle Widower Male 61 1840 Tailor Ireland



Vulcaniser - definition of vulcaniser by The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/vulcaniser
Noun, 1. vulcaniser - someone who vulcanizes rubber to improve its strength and resiliency. vulcanizer · skilled worker, skilled workman, trained worker - a ...

That looks goodto fit the occupation safc

Dea x

Further information: Why did I consider Birmingham? Because on the 1914 marriage certificate, John Oakes is a Solid Tyre Builder and Samuel Oakes is (or was) a Vulcaniser. Manchester and Aston/Birmingham both had substantial rubber tyre works in 1914.
Also, a correction, the first child was born in 1915, not 1914 - John Ralph Oakes, Chorlton. By 1939 he was also in the rubber trade, as a rubber spreader.

Hugh

Thank you all for all this. I hadn't considered Prestwich, as being too far north in Manchester / Lancashire, but the address in Miles Platting is much more industrial and further south and east than Prestwich. I'm pursuing Samuel J as likely, with his son away on Census day 1901.

Hugh

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
5 Garrett St Miles Platting, North Manchester, Lancashire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Samuel Oakes Head Married Male Telephone Wire Man 42 1869 Manchester Lancs
Transcription
Mary Oakes Wife Married Female Cop Reeler 42 1869 Manchester Lancs

Still a problem.

I had been working on John (Ralph) Oakes being the son of John Oakes (1893) and Alice Prestage, mostly because they married in October 1914 and their first child was called John and was born in 1915. Occupations of this John and his father Samuel as above.
BUT
Samuel 42 and Mary 42 living at 5 Garrett Street, Newton, Manchester in 1911 Census are presumably the same people as Samuel J Oakes 33 and Mary 33 at the same address in the 1901 Census, with no children of the marriage, according to the 1911 Census, and they married in 1896 (Oakes- Molloy). Is there some way to prove that John Oakes 1893 is a son of Samuel Oakes 1868/9, perhaps by a previous marriage? And / or the John Oakes 1893, born in Weaver, Northwich, living with his Granny on Census day 1901?

Would it help me to get John (Ralph) Oakes 1915 birth certificate, to get a better fix on his father John 1893?

No idea if related?

I think these military records are for the same person- Occupation Rubber Worker (Tyre)

First name(s) John
Last name Oakes
Service number 22559
Regiment King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment
Unit / Battalion 3rd Battalion
Event year 1915
Age 21
Birth year 1894
Birth town Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Residence town Manchester
Residence county Lancashire
Series WO 363
------------------------------------

First name(s) John
Last name Oakes
Service number 617449
Regiment Labour Corps
Unit / Battalion No 26th Company
Event year 1919
Age 24
Birth year 1895
Birth town Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Residence town Manchester
Residence county Lancashire
Series WO 363

The service records are quite hard to follow- but I think both are for the same man. I think it says:

Married 10/ 10/ 1914
Katharine 23/ 5/ 1915
Jack 1/ 11/ 1915

If they are his children the dates are too close together- perhaps an error?

Thanks a lot.

10 October 1914 fits for "my" John Oakes, who was 21 at the time of his marriage, so he might have still been 21 in 1915 if the record is from early enough in 1915! As to the children's dates, "my" John (Ralph) Oakes was born Q4 1915, so that fits, too. I suspect that the second chap is someone different even if he was also a rubber tyre worker. There were far too many John Oakeses in the Manchester area, and I suspect Katherine isn't "my" John's daughter.

If "my" John was in the Army from 1915, that might explain why his children were born in 1915(John), then 1919 to 1927 (Samuel, Mary, Amy and Ralph).

I couldn't believe how many John or Samuel Oakes there were, close together in both time and location.

Both records are definitely for the same man.

Attested 29th Dec 1915
Declared age: 21 years 9mths
Married
Next of Kin: Wife 3 Court, Ancoats, Manchester
Occupation: Rubber Worker (Tyre)
Name and Address of last employer: Mackintosh & Co. Manchester. Rubber Works
Address on Discharge: 6 House, 3 Court, Ancoats, Manchester
-------------------------------------------------

I was also looking at the first census that Maddie put up:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
30 Ogden St Hulme Manchester, South Manchester, Lancashire, England

Samuel Oakes Head Widower Male Rustie Worker 40 1871 Lanc Stretford
John Oakes Son Single Male - 15 1896 Lanc Hulme
Samuel Oakes Son - Male School 13 1898 Lanc Hulme
Fredrick Oakes Son - Male - 9 1902 Lanc Hulme
Nelly Oakes Daughter - Female - 7 1904 Lanc Hulme
- Ogle Visitor Widow Female - 37 1874 Summerhill Nr Dublin Visitor

Nelly marries in 1925 to James Stephen Macdonald. She lists her father as Samuel Oakes RUBBER WORKER. So I wouldn't rule this family out.

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Hulme (Manchester)
Church name St Gabriel
Register type PR
Register entry number 2778
Baptism date 26 Jun 1895
Birth date 22 Apr 1895
Person forename John Hiram
Person abode 1 Primrose hill
Father forename Samuel
Father surname OAKES
Father occupation Lamp lighter
Mother forename Nellie


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Hulme (Manchester)
Church name St Gabriel
Register type PR
Register entry number 3098
Baptism date 22 Sep 1897
Birth date 25 Aug 1897
Person forename Samel
Person abode 28 Yew st
Father forename Samuel
Father surname OAKES
Father occupation Lamplighter
Mother forename Nellie


(above ones, from below)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1893 (Perhaps)

OAKES Samuel MOORE Nelly Longsight, St. John Archives+, Manchester Central Library


Marriages Mar 1893 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Moore Nelly Chorlton 8c 907
Oakes Samuel Chorlton 8c 907


Births Jun 1893 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Oakes Lily Amelia Chorlton 8c 849


1901 (from Find My Past)
Samuel Oakes Head Married Male 30 1871 Rustic Garden House Builder Stretford, Lancashire, England
Nelly Oakes Wife Married Female 29 1872 - Stretford, Lancashire, England
Lily A Oakes Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Longsight, Lancashire, England
John H Oakes Son Single Male 5 1896 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Samuel Oakes Son Single Male 3 1898 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Street Ogden Street
Parish South Manchester
County Lancashire
Municipal ward St George's
Registration district Chorlton
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 3705
Folio 106
Page 37

Chris :)

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1908

OAKES Nelly 35 Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/236/484


http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

(if anything else on above)

Thank you AustinQ.

more confirmation: 6, No3 Court, Frost Street, Ancoats is the groom's address for "my" John Ralph Oakes marriage certificate on 16th December 1939, when he was aged 24. So you definitely have his father John Oakes in the Army record.

Age 21 years 9 months on 29th December 1915 means his father John Oakes was born in early 1894 (about March). If the second Army record relates to January-March 1919, they may be the same man.

The October 10 1914 marriage certificate says John Oakes was 21, when the above chap was 20 years 7 months (approximately). This might be an error - the pen writing really doesn't look like a tall thin 0!) or it might be because his bride was older than him (at 23) and he said "nearly 21". OR (and I like this one) the UK age to marry without parents' consent was 21 until 1926, and he was lying. This might explain the absence of an Oakes as witness, and marriage after publishing banns in a new, not-local and unfamiliar church.

I haven't found Katherine Oakes' birth at all. Could Katherine have been an acknowledged and illegitimate child with another woman?

The date of the national Census may also be relevant for someone born in March. In 1891 it was 5 April, in 1901 it was 31 March, in 1911 it was 2 April. This means a Q1 birth will have their actual year of birth indicated by the Census age.

Now I have to search again for a John Oakes born Q1 1894, and estranged from his parents???

Hugh Wolfson
(I'm using my wife's name on GR as we started off tracing her family)

John W Oakes aged 7 1901 Census, living 80 Viaduct street, Beswick, East Manchester, with father John W Oakes 1864, Mother Florence 1866, Arthur 1887,Mary E 1888, Lily 1891, John W 1894. Father and Arthur are labourer and apprentice in rubber works. I feel really optimistic!

Viaduct street is a few hundred yards from other addresses in our saga, including the 1914 bride's home in 1911.

There's another John Oakes b Q3 1894 in Warrington, but I doubt he is relevant.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Hugh

But wasn't 'your' John's father called Samuel ?? or have I got confused here?

Dea x

Yes, that's what it says on the marriage certificate. But I doubt it, now, seeing how close the Army record is for most other things! See above, maybe he was lying to the vicar.

I still would like to find a John Oakes, born in early 1894, that fits better. (Sigh!) I shall have to get the birth cert of John Ralph Oakes 1915.

The whole large Oakes clan seem to have used one or other of their given names at various times, and maybe "Samuel" was yet another example.

I started off thinking that Oakes wasn't that common a name.

Hugh

I shall give it a rest now for a bit., while I tidy up what I have on the female side of the family.