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I have collated all the John Oakes and Samuel Oakes I could find in roughly the right dates and places, and I think that AustinQ and Chris Ho are right - "my" John Oakes is John H Oakes, born Longsight, Manchester in 1895/6 to Samuel and Nelly nee Moore. The peripheral evidence about occupation in the rubber industry is persuasive.

It's not conclusive, though, as there were two John Oakes born in Chorlton Register district in 1895, in Q1 and Q4. I shall go and do something more rewarding.

Hugh

The birth certificate was not helpful. John Ralph born 1 November 1915 at 40 Prescott street, Hulme, father John Oakes General labourer. Mother Alice Oakes formerly Prestage. Informant Alice Oakes, Mother, 40 Prescott Street, Hulme. Notified 9 December 1915.

I'm coming round to the suggestion of my John being under age to marry and maybe being born as late as 1896-8. I really don't know how to confirm this.

I shall follow AustinQ's suggestion of trying to trace the siblings.

Thanks to everybody for their ideas and suggestions.

Hugh

I have sent for the birth cert of John R Oakes b Q4 1915, so now I have to wait for a week for clinching information about his father (I hope!).

Hugh

Hugh


Lying about ages on marriage certificates was common!

They did not have to show any proof of age, of parentage or of marital status, and I certainly didn't in the late 1960s ........... I have no idea what the current situation is.

My maternal grandmother and grandfather BOTH lied about their ages when they got married in 1902.

BOTH were under-age, BOTH only added a couple of years to their ages, which still made them under-age

and

BOTH fathers and siblings were present at the wedding AND signed the Register

Think this might help- Catherine marries Samuel Wagstaff in 1934. She is listed under Prestage and OAKES.

Marriages Jun 1934
Wagstaff Samuel Prestage Manchester S. 8d 443
Wagstaff Samuel Oakes Manchester S. 8d 443

There are passenger lists of her going to Sydney in 1952 with daughter Mavis (born 1938 mm Oakes)

Samuel from that 1911 census definitely went into rubber works, after being a rustic worker. This is the marriage of his daughter Nelly:

Name: Nelly Oakes
Birth Year: abt 1904
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 11 Apr 1925
Parish: Chorlton upon Medlock, St Luke
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Luke
Father's name: Samuel Oakes (Rubber Worker) <<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Name: James Staphen Macdonald (Motor driver)
Spouse's Father's Name: John Macdonald (shoemaker, deceased)
Address for Bride and Groom: 104 Rusholme Road
Witnesses: Margaret Reids, Samuel Oakes
Reference Number: GB127.M100/1/2/4

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1913

PRESTAGE Catherine Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library (Mother Maiden Name) PRESTAGE ANC/287/91

Chris :)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(worth using above link!)

AustinQ

That looks interesting, as Alice Prestage married our John Oakes in 1914. Is this a daughter born out of wedlock, and maybe not John's even if he took her on as a dependent? The army record you quote says 23/5/15. As you say, too close to John Ralph Oakes to be a truthful date for Alice's daughter.

Chris Ho's input also looks interesting, even persuasive, assuming John lied about his age to the vicar and to the army. I shall HAVE to get John Ralph's birth certificate (but not immediately).

Samuel was a Rustic worker and builder of garden houses, but he may have gone into the rubber works later.

Hugh

Hugh

Oh, forgot to say, I know the year is out, but thought this may be worth considering for Katharine:

Birth
Name: Catherine Prestage
Mother's Maiden Name: Prestage
Registration Year: 1913
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d Page: 375

I'm still thinking that 1911 census at 30 Ogden St Hulme Manchester could be your John with his father Samuel. The fact that Samuel is listed later on his daughter's marriage as a rubber worker, shows his job had changed from 1911 and would also fit with being a vulcanizer on John's marriage.

Many men lied about their age on attestation and many people lied about their age on their marriage certificates.

I believe that Samuel was John's father- a vulcanizer seems too specific to be made up, and John also called one of his children Samuel.

If the birth certificate for John Ralph gives no positive results, I would consider researching the marriages for the other children of Samuel.

Lily Amelia 1893
Samuel 1897
Frederick c1902
Nelly 1904

O.K. but when you get that birth cert for John Ralph, do please come back onto this thread and tell us what is says - I am intrigued now ;-)

Dea x

Yes, that's what it says on the marriage certificate. But I doubt it, now, seeing how close the Army record is for most other things! See above, maybe he was lying to the vicar.

I still would like to find a John Oakes, born in early 1894, that fits better. (Sigh!) I shall have to get the birth cert of John Ralph Oakes 1915.

The whole large Oakes clan seem to have used one or other of their given names at various times, and maybe "Samuel" was yet another example.

I started off thinking that Oakes wasn't that common a name.

Hugh

I shall give it a rest now for a bit., while I tidy up what I have on the female side of the family.

But wasn't 'your' John's father called Samuel ?? or have I got confused here?

Dea x

John W Oakes aged 7 1901 Census, living 80 Viaduct street, Beswick, East Manchester, with father John W Oakes 1864, Mother Florence 1866, Arthur 1887,Mary E 1888, Lily 1891, John W 1894. Father and Arthur are labourer and apprentice in rubber works. I feel really optimistic!

Viaduct street is a few hundred yards from other addresses in our saga, including the 1914 bride's home in 1911.

There's another John Oakes b Q3 1894 in Warrington, but I doubt he is relevant.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Hugh

Thank you AustinQ.

more confirmation: 6, No3 Court, Frost Street, Ancoats is the groom's address for "my" John Ralph Oakes marriage certificate on 16th December 1939, when he was aged 24. So you definitely have his father John Oakes in the Army record.

Age 21 years 9 months on 29th December 1915 means his father John Oakes was born in early 1894 (about March). If the second Army record relates to January-March 1919, they may be the same man.

The October 10 1914 marriage certificate says John Oakes was 21, when the above chap was 20 years 7 months (approximately). This might be an error - the pen writing really doesn't look like a tall thin 0!) or it might be because his bride was older than him (at 23) and he said "nearly 21". OR (and I like this one) the UK age to marry without parents' consent was 21 until 1926, and he was lying. This might explain the absence of an Oakes as witness, and marriage after publishing banns in a new, not-local and unfamiliar church.

I haven't found Katherine Oakes' birth at all. Could Katherine have been an acknowledged and illegitimate child with another woman?

The date of the national Census may also be relevant for someone born in March. In 1891 it was 5 April, in 1901 it was 31 March, in 1911 it was 2 April. This means a Q1 birth will have their actual year of birth indicated by the Census age.

Now I have to search again for a John Oakes born Q1 1894, and estranged from his parents???

Hugh Wolfson
(I'm using my wife's name on GR as we started off tracing her family)

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Hulme (Manchester)
Church name St Gabriel
Register type PR
Register entry number 2778
Baptism date 26 Jun 1895
Birth date 22 Apr 1895
Person forename John Hiram
Person abode 1 Primrose hill
Father forename Samuel
Father surname OAKES
Father occupation Lamp lighter
Mother forename Nellie


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Hulme (Manchester)
Church name St Gabriel
Register type PR
Register entry number 3098
Baptism date 22 Sep 1897
Birth date 25 Aug 1897
Person forename Samel
Person abode 28 Yew st
Father forename Samuel
Father surname OAKES
Father occupation Lamplighter
Mother forename Nellie


(above ones, from below)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1893 (Perhaps)

OAKES Samuel MOORE Nelly Longsight, St. John Archives+, Manchester Central Library


Marriages Mar 1893 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Moore Nelly Chorlton 8c 907
Oakes Samuel Chorlton 8c 907


Births Jun 1893 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Oakes Lily Amelia Chorlton 8c 849


1901 (from Find My Past)
Samuel Oakes Head Married Male 30 1871 Rustic Garden House Builder Stretford, Lancashire, England
Nelly Oakes Wife Married Female 29 1872 - Stretford, Lancashire, England
Lily A Oakes Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Longsight, Lancashire, England
John H Oakes Son Single Male 5 1896 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Samuel Oakes Son Single Male 3 1898 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Street Ogden Street
Parish South Manchester
County Lancashire
Municipal ward St George's
Registration district Chorlton
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 3705
Folio 106
Page 37

Chris :)

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1908

OAKES Nelly 35 Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/236/484


http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

(if anything else on above)

Both records are definitely for the same man.

Attested 29th Dec 1915
Declared age: 21 years 9mths
Married
Next of Kin: Wife 3 Court, Ancoats, Manchester
Occupation: Rubber Worker (Tyre)
Name and Address of last employer: Mackintosh & Co. Manchester. Rubber Works
Address on Discharge: 6 House, 3 Court, Ancoats, Manchester
-------------------------------------------------

I was also looking at the first census that Maddie put up:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
30 Ogden St Hulme Manchester, South Manchester, Lancashire, England

Samuel Oakes Head Widower Male Rustie Worker 40 1871 Lanc Stretford
John Oakes Son Single Male - 15 1896 Lanc Hulme
Samuel Oakes Son - Male School 13 1898 Lanc Hulme
Fredrick Oakes Son - Male - 9 1902 Lanc Hulme
Nelly Oakes Daughter - Female - 7 1904 Lanc Hulme
- Ogle Visitor Widow Female - 37 1874 Summerhill Nr Dublin Visitor

Nelly marries in 1925 to James Stephen Macdonald. She lists her father as Samuel Oakes RUBBER WORKER. So I wouldn't rule this family out.

Thanks a lot.

10 October 1914 fits for "my" John Oakes, who was 21 at the time of his marriage, so he might have still been 21 in 1915 if the record is from early enough in 1915! As to the children's dates, "my" John (Ralph) Oakes was born Q4 1915, so that fits, too. I suspect that the second chap is someone different even if he was also a rubber tyre worker. There were far too many John Oakeses in the Manchester area, and I suspect Katherine isn't "my" John's daughter.

If "my" John was in the Army from 1915, that might explain why his children were born in 1915(John), then 1919 to 1927 (Samuel, Mary, Amy and Ralph).

I couldn't believe how many John or Samuel Oakes there were, close together in both time and location.

No idea if related?

I think these military records are for the same person- Occupation Rubber Worker (Tyre)

First name(s) John
Last name Oakes
Service number 22559
Regiment King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment
Unit / Battalion 3rd Battalion
Event year 1915
Age 21
Birth year 1894
Birth town Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Residence town Manchester
Residence county Lancashire
Series WO 363
------------------------------------

First name(s) John
Last name Oakes
Service number 617449
Regiment Labour Corps
Unit / Battalion No 26th Company
Event year 1919
Age 24
Birth year 1895
Birth town Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Residence town Manchester
Residence county Lancashire
Series WO 363

The service records are quite hard to follow- but I think both are for the same man. I think it says:

Married 10/ 10/ 1914
Katharine 23/ 5/ 1915
Jack 1/ 11/ 1915

If they are his children the dates are too close together- perhaps an error?

Still a problem.

I had been working on John (Ralph) Oakes being the son of John Oakes (1893) and Alice Prestage, mostly because they married in October 1914 and their first child was called John and was born in 1915. Occupations of this John and his father Samuel as above.
BUT
Samuel 42 and Mary 42 living at 5 Garrett Street, Newton, Manchester in 1911 Census are presumably the same people as Samuel J Oakes 33 and Mary 33 at the same address in the 1901 Census, with no children of the marriage, according to the 1911 Census, and they married in 1896 (Oakes- Molloy). Is there some way to prove that John Oakes 1893 is a son of Samuel Oakes 1868/9, perhaps by a previous marriage? And / or the John Oakes 1893, born in Weaver, Northwich, living with his Granny on Census day 1901?

Would it help me to get John (Ralph) Oakes 1915 birth certificate, to get a better fix on his father John 1893?