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Alviegal


I'm just wondering if Richard William is a red herring???


The only other Lil(l)y Smith born in Barnsely on the 1891 Census is the one that Shirley posted yesterday, living with her grandparents

This appears to be the witnesses to the marriage. Doesn't seem to be much help though.


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
50, Church Street, Thurnscoe, Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Joseph Holding Head Married Male 58 1843 Clerk & Sexton Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ann Holding Wife Married Female 54 1847 - Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Frank Holding Son Single Male 25 1876 Post Office Clerk Blacker Hill, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Emma Brittain Sister-In-Law Married Female 51 1850 - Yorkshire, England

Sylvia, I was thinking the same thing. If Shirley's Lily is correct, then surely her mother would be a Miss Riley. Not finding a marriage for corresponding people though.

Alviegal


If Joseph Holding was Clerk and Sexton at the church, and Ann was his wife .......... then that means they were acting in lieu of friends attending, and could possibly have been "professional" witnesses, being paid a small amount for doing so.

Grey ghost, I think Thomas Swift may have married Charlotte Loveday which leaves Mary Elizabeth Vickers to marry Richard William Smith. Can't find them though.


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Parkins Yard, Nether Hoyland, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Swift Head Married Male 26 1865 Coal Miner Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Charlotte Swift Wife Married Female 25 1866 - Norfolk, England
Transcription
Gertrude Swift Daughter Single Female 4 1887 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
George Henry Swift Son Single Male 3 1888 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Frank Swift Son Single Male 0 1891 - Elsecar, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Aaron Moody Lodger Single Male 40 1851 Labourer Milton, Yorkshire, England

I don't think that Jonathan and Ann are the parents of my Lily, Richard is named as father of the bride.

Moira

Richard may be named as the father of the bride, but that does not necessarily mean that he even existed!

Many illegitimate children "named" a father on their marriage certificate because it "looked better" to the other family than a blank.

Some named a family member, eg grandfather, uncle

Some named a family friend

Some gave a name that was the same or very similar to someone well-known in the village or town.

We've all been on wild goose chases trying to find these "false" names.


I don't think that Jonathan and Ann are the parents of your Lil(l)y, but the fact remains that no-one has succeeded in finding a Richard William with daughter Lil(l)y.


That is why I posted a few hours ago that I was beginning to wonder if we were on a red herring chase.



In fact ............... what documentary evidence do you have that your Lil(l)y was in fact born in Barnsley?? She could have been born anywhere!

Lily was my husbands grandmother, other than the fact that she told everyone she was born in Barnsley and that she is in the 1911 census and on that she has said she was born Barnsley, but she could have been told she was born in Barnsley from an early age and believed it. So I am at a loss now, by the way she was not with Husband in 1911 she had left him by then and took up with another man.
Thank you for your help everyone

Moira, what name was she using in the 1911 census? Also, do you know when and where Lily died?

It looks like the witnesses for Lily and Thomas marriage where the church sexton and his wife

Moira ...........

that is what alviegal and I suggested was the case when we identified who they were.

"Professional" witnesses were a way of life for many of our ancestors ............ if their friends could not get time off work to go to a wedding, then the church usually had a couple of people around who would act as witnesses for a small fee. These people were staunch churchgoers, often the warden, sexton or sidesmen, but able to be around during the daytime.

Is this Lil(l)y in 1939?

Garside Household Bradford C.B., Yorkshire (West Riding), England
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth year
Lily Baker (Garside) 1889
Arthur Garside is also on this record

The following Thread looks to be related

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1278560

It looks like Lily was co-habiting with Charles Mapplebeck, 18 years her senior, in 1911

There is an entry in 1939 in Hoyland Nether, Yorkshire West Riding

Charles Mapplebeck b 1870
Lily Mapplebeck b 1888

One more person on record + two locked.
Credits required to see record.

(seems to have been deleted that link Lb, or a GR gremlin!, below relates?)

edits (strange, same number, but Error for other link)

Chris :)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1278560

What a tangled webb ect.
Moira Report 27 Aug 2011 15:57

Please can anyone advise me.
I am looking for my husbands Grandmother. Laura/Lily Smith .b 1887 Barnsley Yorkshire.On the 1911 census she is Laura but was know to everyone as Lily
Was married to a Mr. Baker ( Cannot find a record of the marriage) but left him to live with Charles Mapplebeck.( My Husbands Grandfather) we believe they never married ( Cannot find a record of the marriage for them either)
The first child to Charles and Laura/Lily was Caroline and was reg. as Caroline Mapplebeck Baker, they went on to have a further 12 children and the first 8 are all Mapplebeck Baker, the rest they dropped the Baker from the name.
Thank you
Moira

Could be that I put a capital 'T' for Thread, Chris...now amended. Thanks for pointing out.

http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/

(a lot of Lilies on above!)

Chris :)

(witnesses below, 1901 at 50, Church Street, Thurnscoe, Doncaster, Yorkshire. (Clerk/Sexton, her sister Emma)

Marriages Dec 1864 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Cookson Ann Rotherham 9c 776
Holding Joseph Rotherham 9c 776


(below for that 1911, also, same time George Mapplebeck)

Yorkshire Baptisms Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) Charles
Last name Mapplebeck
Baptism year 1875
Baptism date 23 Jun 1875
Baptism place Chapeltown
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) Ephraim (Labourer)
Mother's first name(s) Harriet
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies


Marriages Sep 1865 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Mapplebeck Ephraim Wortley 9c 221
Hague Harriet Wortley 9c 221


Deaths Jun 1874 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
MAPPLEBECK Harriet 28 Wortley 9c 148


08 October 1879 - Sheffield Independent - Sheffield, South Yorkshire

SHEFFIELD TOWN HALL
Ephraim Mapplebeck, labourer, Chapeltown, was placed in the dock charged with felony.


Deaths Mar 1951 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
MAPPLEBECK Charles 82 Staincross 2d 774


Births Mar 1870 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
MAPPLEBECK Charles Wortley 9c 218

(looking at 1871)


Mary Report 27 Aug 2011 17:19

Death cert Lily Mapplebeck registered Staincross West Yorks born @ 1887 died O/N/D 1940 9c 545.

Maryb.



Deaths Dec 1911 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Mapplebeck Edith 1 Rotherham 9c 819

(Edith 1911?)

I keep going back to the Marriage of Richard William Smith in 1885 who it looks like married Mary Elizabeth Vickers

There is this 1901 census that could be Lily.

Name: Lilly Smith
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Great Houghton
Search Photos: Search for 'Great Houghton' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: Darfield All Saints
Town: Great Houghton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Hemsworth
Sub-registration district: Hemsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4308
Folio: 149
Page Number: 7
Household schedule number: 50
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Leeming 60
Myria Leeming 31
May Leeming 9
John W Leeming 5
Mary Leeming 2
Susannah Vickers 29
Lilly Smith 13

This looks to be the Marriage of Thomas & Myria
Marriages Dec 1890
Leaming Thomas Barnsley 9c 3
Vickers Myra Barnsley 9c 317

So could Myra/Myria be the sister of Susannah and possibly Mary Elizabeth ?
Making Myra/Myria & Susannah Aunts to Lily?

Looking at the 1911 census posted on the other Thread, I'm wondering whether the William Smith listed is in fact Richard William. Although it says his occupation is Organ Grinder on earlier censuses his Occupation is a Miner

MAPPLEBECK, Charles Head Married M 39 1872 Miner Hewer Yorks Chapeltown VIEW
MAPPLEBECK, Laura Wife Married
3 years F 24 1887 Yorks Hoyland Nether VIEW
MAPPLEBECK, Caroline Daughter F 1 1910 Yorks Stairfoot VIEW
MAPPLEBECK, Edith Daughter F 0 (10 MONTHS) 1911 Yorks Stairfoot VIEW
SMITH, William Boarder Widower M 45 1866 Organ Grinder Yorks Jump VIEW
SMITH, Albert Boarder Single M 17 1894 Miner Trammer Yorks Normanton VIEW
STOTT, Leonard Boarder Single M 17 1894 Roperunner Under Ground Yorks Sheffield VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
27561 Reference:
RG14PN27561 RG78PN1578 RD507 SD2 ED2 SN200

Registration District:
Barnsley Sub District:
Barnsley Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Ardsley

Address:
9 Hunningley Lane Stairfoot Ardsley County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

(below looks to fit those)

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Burial
County Yorkshire, West Riding
Place Darfield
Church name All Saints
Register type Unspecified
Burial date 15 May 1917
Person age 76
Burial person forename Thomas
Burial person surname LEAMING


Burial
County Yorkshire, West Riding
Place Darfield
Church name All Saints
Register type Unspecified
Burial date 11 Apr 1953
Person age 82
Burial person forename Mrs
Burial person surname LEAMING

Deaths Jun 1953 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
LEAMING Myra 82 Hemsworth 2b 570


(what then became of Thomas Albert Baker?)

Thank you to all who helped me, I have now got the cert's
Richard William Married Mary Elizabeth Vickers in Hoyland Barnsley
Richards father was Richard Smith b, 1846 ? Kingswinford Staffordshire He married Emma Litchfield in 1864 Hoyland Barnsley this Richard Died in the swaithe mining disaster of 1875 and his age was put at 29 this would him being born 1846 but on his marriage cert to Emma he is down as being born 1842, his father is named on the marriage cert. as Thomas, I cannot find the family of this on either the 1851 or the 1861 census