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Lily was my husbands grandmother, other than the fact that she told everyone she was born in Barnsley and that she is in the 1911 census and on that she has said she was born Barnsley, but she could have been told she was born in Barnsley from an early age and believed it. So I am at a loss now, by the way she was not with Husband in 1911 she had left him by then and took up with another man.
Thank you for your help everyone

Moira

Richard may be named as the father of the bride, but that does not necessarily mean that he even existed!

Many illegitimate children "named" a father on their marriage certificate because it "looked better" to the other family than a blank.

Some named a family member, eg grandfather, uncle

Some named a family friend

Some gave a name that was the same or very similar to someone well-known in the village or town.

We've all been on wild goose chases trying to find these "false" names.


I don't think that Jonathan and Ann are the parents of your Lil(l)y, but the fact remains that no-one has succeeded in finding a Richard William with daughter Lil(l)y.


That is why I posted a few hours ago that I was beginning to wonder if we were on a red herring chase.



In fact ............... what documentary evidence do you have that your Lil(l)y was in fact born in Barnsley?? She could have been born anywhere!

I don't think that Jonathan and Ann are the parents of my Lily, Richard is named as father of the bride.

Grey ghost, I think Thomas Swift may have married Charlotte Loveday which leaves Mary Elizabeth Vickers to marry Richard William Smith. Can't find them though.


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Parkins Yard, Nether Hoyland, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Swift Head Married Male 26 1865 Coal Miner Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Charlotte Swift Wife Married Female 25 1866 - Norfolk, England
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Gertrude Swift Daughter Single Female 4 1887 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
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George Henry Swift Son Single Male 3 1888 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
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Frank Swift Son Single Male 0 1891 - Elsecar, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Aaron Moody Lodger Single Male 40 1851 Labourer Milton, Yorkshire, England

Alviegal


If Joseph Holding was Clerk and Sexton at the church, and Ann was his wife .......... then that means they were acting in lieu of friends attending, and could possibly have been "professional" witnesses, being paid a small amount for doing so.

Sylvia, I was thinking the same thing. If Shirley's Lily is correct, then surely her mother would be a Miss Riley. Not finding a marriage for corresponding people though.

This appears to be the witnesses to the marriage. Doesn't seem to be much help though.


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
50, Church Street, Thurnscoe, Doncaster, Yorkshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Joseph Holding Head Married Male 58 1843 Clerk & Sexton Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ann Holding Wife Married Female 54 1847 - Yorkshire, England
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Frank Holding Son Single Male 25 1876 Post Office Clerk Blacker Hill, Yorkshire, England
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Emma Brittain Sister-In-Law Married Female 51 1850 - Yorkshire, England

Alviegal


I'm just wondering if Richard William is a red herring???


The only other Lil(l)y Smith born in Barnsely on the 1891 Census is the one that Shirley posted yesterday, living with her grandparents

This seems to be the family from 1901 in 1891 .... so is this your Lil(l)y or not??

1891 Census

Name: Albert Smith
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Father's name: Jonathan Smith
Mother's name: Ann Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Barnsley
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Barnsley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Barnsley
ED, institution, or vessel: 22

Piece: 3774
Folio: 113
Page Number: 7

Jonathan Smith 46 b.ca 1845, High Hoyland, Yorkshire, Coal Miner
Ann Smith 39 b.ca 1852, Worsborough, Yorkshire, Hammerer in Coal Pit
Henry Smith 21 b.ca 1870, Barnsley, Leader in Coal Pit
Jonathan Smith 18 Coal Leader
Albert Smith 15 b.ca 1876, Barnsley, Pony Driver in Coal Pit
Beatrice Smith 11 Scholar
Ernest Smith 9 Scholar
James Smith 6 Scholar
Lilly Smith 3 b.ca 1888, Barnsley

Address:- 30 Joseph St

This is that family Sylvia so probably not as father is Jonathan.


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Joseph Street, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Jonathan Smith Head Married Male 46 1845 Coal Miner High Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ann Smith Wife Married Female 39 1852 - Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Henry Smith Son Single Male 21 1870 Trammer In Coal Pit Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Jonathan Smith Son Single Male 18 1873 Coal Leader Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Albert Smith Son Single Male 15 1876 Pony Driver In Coal Pit Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Beatrice Smith Daughter - Female 11 1880 Scholar Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ernest Smith Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
James Smith Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Lilly Smith Daughter - Female 3 1888 - Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

Is this Lilly with her mother in 1901???

1901 Census

Name: Lilly Smith
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Mother: Ann Smith
Birth Place: Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Barnsley
Search Photos: Search for 'Barnsley' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Barnsley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Barnsley
Sub-registration district: Barnsley
ED, institution, or vessel: 32

Piece: 4315
Folio: 205
Page Number: 33
Household schedule number: 216

Ann Smith 49 b.ca 1852, Barnsley, Widow
Henry Smith 31 b.ca 1870, Barnsley, Gas Works Labourer
Albert Smith 25b.ca 1876, Barnsley, Farming Labourer
Lilly Smith 13 Painter (???) at Bobbin Mille
Charles W Smith 9 b.ca 1892, Barnsley

Address:- 30 Joseph St

from FMP


Yorkshire Marriages Transcription

First name(s) Thomas Albert
Last name Baker
Age 21
Birth year 1884
Marriage year 1905
Marriage date 08 May 1905
Marriage place Thurnscoe
Residence Thurnscoe
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Baker
Spouse's first name(s) Lily
Spouse's last name Smith
Spouse's age 17
Spouse's residence Thurnscoe
Spouse's father's first name(s) Richard William
Spouse's father's last name Smith
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive Doncaster Archives
Page 99
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from United Kingdom

from image:-

Address for both Thomas and Lily given as Thurnscoe

Richard's occupation:- Miner

Thomas and his father are also Miners

Witnesses:- Joseph Holding and Ann Holding

Thank you I will, we are off to family for Christmas so hope it arrives before then

Moira, come back on this Thread when you have received the Marriage Certificate and let us know what it says then we might be able to help you some more.

I have only the info from Ancestry marriages and from the office that I have sent for the cert. of Lilly and Thomas that Richard is named. I never thought to ask his occupation. I await the marriage cert. arriving.

Moira, What occupation is given for Richard? who were the Witnesses to the Marriage? What age and address were given for Lilly?

Lastly, have you found Richard in any other census?

Thanks

thank you so much everyone,I am so sorry I could not get back in site yesterday, we had a water leak, so i was quiet busy, all mended now. Thank you again for all you hard work. Richard is named on the marriage cert,

??
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Nether Field, Nether Hoyland, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Esau Loveday Head Married Male 60 1821 Labourer Hainford, Norfolk, England
Martha Loveday Wife Married Female 52 1829 - Hainford, Norfolk, England
Charlotte Loveday Daughter Single Female 15 1866 - Fritton, Norfolk, England
Thos Green Boarder Single Male 28 1853 Stone Miner (Quarrier) Wadworth, Yorkshire, England
Geo White Boarder Single Male 60 1821 Stone Miner (Quarrier) Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England

Possible that Thomas Swift married Mary Elizabeth Vickers - Jump and Hoyland are next to each other districts of Barnsley.

So the Richard William Smith listed married Charlotte Loveday

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Princess Street, Nether Hoyland, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Swift Head Married Male 28 1863 Insurance Agent Jump, Yorkshire, England
Mary Swift Wife Married Female 23 1868 - Jump, Yorkshire, England

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1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Hoyland, Nether Hoyland, Barnsley, Yorkshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Bailey Head Married Male 55 1826 Beerhouse Keeper Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Mary Ann Bailey Wife Married Female 53 1828 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
George Bailey Son Single Male 20 1861 C Miner Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Savilla Bailey Daughter Single Female 17 1864 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Walter Bailey Son Single Male 13 1868 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Wm Francis Bailey Son Single Male 12 1869 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Mary Elizth Vickers Grand Daughter Single Female 12 1869 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
James Vickers Grand Son Single Male 4 1877 - Hoyland, Yorkshire, England
Wm Bowling Lodger Widower Male 49 1832 Laborer Buckden, Huntingdonshire, England

Richard William Smith
England and Wales Marriage Registration Index
Name Richard William Smith
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1885
Registration District Barnsley
County Yorkshire
Event Place Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Volume 9C
Page 208
Line Number 146

Richard William Smith probably married one of the following people
Name Charlotte Loveday
Name Thomas Swift
Name Mary Elizabeth Vickers