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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 12:33 |
I am asking help about my grandfather Joseph Doyle born 1861 born I think in Manchester parents are Joseph Doyle 1826 mother Ellen Doyle née Leonard born 1829 both parents are from Ireland I can find Joseph Doyle 1881 in a Night Assylum is this a poor house ? States he is married and a unemployed porter he marries my grandmother Mary Ellen Bancroft in 1895 I can find him on the 1901 and 1911 census with the family the next time I find him is on a ship to America in 1917 aboard the St Paul he ends up in Ohio dying in 1936 at a Salvation hostel My quest was to try and find 1-- his first wife 2-- what was he doing in the night Assylum 3-- did he divorce Mary Ellen I don't appear to be able to get any further back from 1871 census So if anyone could point me in the right direction Inwould be grateful these of course could all be red herrings and they are not one and the same person :-0
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 12:48 |
Is this your family in 1871?
Name: Ellen Doyle Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: Joseph Doyle Gender: Female Where born: Carlow, Ireland Civil Parish: Manchester Ecclesiastical parish: St Oswald Town: Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Registration district: Manchester Sub-registration district: St George ED, institution, or vessel: 41 Household schedule number: 2 Piece: 4054 Folio: 106 Page Number: 1 Household Members: Name Age Joseph Doyle 48 Bootmaker b Wexford Ellen Doyle 42 b Carlow James Doyle 9 b Manchester Joseph Doyle 6 b Manchester George Robinson 18 Samuel Carney 23 Peter Timmons 24
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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 12:57 |
Greyghost Yes I believe it is although I am aware they never seemed to tell the truth when it came to their ages
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 12:59 |
And this the 1881 you site? So could have been born 1859-1864 approx. looking at the 2 census.
I'm not convinced it says he is married - he is ditto from the line above which is a bit of a mess and could as easily say Unmarried.
The relationship to the Head I think says Stranger? *(thought it was Strangler to start with, but there are too many of them!) So perhaps a bit like todays night shelters for those who haven't a home to go to but aren't sleeping on the street??
Joseph Doyle in the 1881 England Census Record Image VIEW View blank form Add Alternative Information Report issue Name: Joseph Doyle Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860 Gender: Male Where born: Manchester Civil Parish: Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Night Assylum Marital Status: Married Education: Occupation: Shop Porter Unemp Registration district: Manchester Sub registration district: Deansgate ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 3989 Folio: 31 Page Number: 1
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Potty
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29 Feb 2016 13:00 |
Did Joseph have a middle name? Could this be him in 1881, all the ages tie up with the 1871:
Name:Joseph Hy. Doyle Age:16 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1865 Relationship to Head:Son Mother:Ellen Doyle Gender:Male Where born:Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish:Newton County/Island:Lancashire Street address:14 Monsall St
Occupation:Shorthand Clerk Registration district:Prestwich
Ellen Doyle 52 , b Ireland, Widow, Stationer James Ed. Doyle 19 Joseph Hy. Doyle 16
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 13:04 |
Manchester births 1861 +/- 5 years for Joseph Doyle's, although registration didn't always happen pre mid 1870's
DOYLE JOSEPH 1859 — DOYLE JOSEPH HENRY 1864 DOYLE JOSEPH JAMES 1865 DOYLE WILLIAM JOSEPH 1862
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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 13:12 |
Potty I did see that and wondered if it was one and the same but on the marriage cert to my get grandmother he does not declare a middle name neither does the death record I believe to be him so that was why I was unsure of that record Grey ghost Although the birth record you have found for William Joseph Doyle 1862 could be him is actually the name of my father born 1937 so would tie in with using family names etc :-\
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 13:14 |
Is this the marriage you are looking at - in Derby? If so, and the 1911 census is them, his age is now making him born 10 years earlier?
Name: Joseph Doyle Registration Year: 1895 Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun Registration district: Derby Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District Inferred County: Derbyshire Volume: 7b Page: 970 Records on Page: Name Mary Ellen Bancroft Joseph Doyle Philip Newbold Rebecca Whittaker
----------------------------------- Remainder of family born Derby
Name: Joseph Doyle Age in 1911: 59 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: Derby Search Photos: Search for 'Derby' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection County/Island: Derbyshire Country: England Street address: 60 Shaftesbury St Derby Marital Status: Married Occupation: General Labourer Registration district: Derby Registration District Number: 435 Sub-registration district: Derby ED, institution, or vessel: 37 Piece: 20908 Household Members: Name Age Joseph Doyle 59 Mary Ellen Doyle 45 Joseph Doyle 16 Ann Doyle 13 John Doyle 10 James Doyle
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Potty
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29 Feb 2016 13:25 |
What does he give as his father's occupation on his marriage cert? I see that in 1901 he gives a middle name of Cyril and that is also on the Baptism of his son Joseph Cyril:
Name:Joseph Cyril Doyle Age:44 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1857 Relation to Head:Head Gender:Male Spouse:Mary Ellen Doyle Birth Place:Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish:Derby
Joseph Cyril Doyle 44 Mary Ellen Doyle 38 Joseph Cyril Doyle 5 Ann Doyle 2 John Edward Doyle 3/12
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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 13:28 |
Grey ghost This is what I mean I do believe that they are one and the same on both documents but on his marriage cert to Mary Ellen Bancroft in 1895 he declares that he is 34 years old and a widower !!! Mary Ellen states her age as 25 years and a spinster The marriage is at Derby Register office
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 13:29 |
Is this worth a look? There is a Samuel J Barton on the 1911 census in Derby aged 50 The marriage certificate might state widowed, divorced etc. Although divorce was rare
England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription
First name(s) MARY E Last name DOYLE Marriage quarter 3 Marriage year 1917 Registration month - MarriageFinder™ MARY E DOYLE married SAMUEL J BARTON Spouse's last name BARTON District DERBY District number - County Derbyshire Country England Volume 7B Page 1160 ------------------------------------
Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription
First name(s) Mary Ellen Last name Doyle Marriage year 1917 Parish Register Office Place Derby Spouse's first name Samuel Joseph Spouse's last name Barton Reference DU/97/017 Register Office 394 County Derbyshire Country England Record set Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index
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MargaretM
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29 Feb 2016 13:30 |
The one who arrived USA in 1917 aboard the St. Paul says that he was born Dublin, Ireland: Also he had been in USA previously from 1892 - August 1916.
Joseph Doyle
in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 Record Image View
View image(s) of the ship
Name: Joseph Doyle Arrival Date: 7 Oct 1917 Birth Date: abt 1860 Birth Location: Ireland Birth Location Other: dublin Age: 57 Gender: Male Ethnicity/ Nationality: Irish Port of Departure: Liverpool, England Port of Arrival: New York, New York Ship Name: St Paul Search Ship Database: Search for the St Paul in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 13:31 |
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription 56 Olive St Crewton Derby, Derby, Derbyshire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place Samuel John Barton Head Married Male Fitters Labourer Loco M R 50 1861 Derbys Melbourne Catherine Barton Wife Married Female - 49 1862 Derbys Melbourne Ida Barton Daughter Single Female Hosiery Hand - Runner On 15 1896 Derbys Crewton Joseph Barton Son - Male School 12 1899 Derbys Crewton
------------------------------------ England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription Print transcription View image First name(s) CATHERINE Last name BARTON Gender Female Birth day - Birth month - Birth year 1861 Age 53 Death quarter 3 Death year 1914 District DERBY County Derbyshire Volume 7B Page 566
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greyghost
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29 Feb 2016 13:36 |
???
Barton Household (7 People) 56 Beatty Street , Derby C.B., Derbyshire, England
Mary Ellen's Age would fit more with her declared age at marriage to Joseph
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER Samuel J Barton 04 May 1860 Male Fitter Retired Married 238 1 Mary E Barton 13 Sep 1871 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 238 2 Frank J Woolley 13 Mar 1901 Male General Labourer Heavy Worker Married 238 3 Ann Eley (Woollety) 01 Jun 1898 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 238 4 Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record. Joseph Woolley 13 Mar 1935 Male At School Single 238 6 Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
--------------------------------------------- and with her birth registration England & Wales births 1837-2006 Transcription
First name(s) MARY ELLEN Last name BANCROFT Birth year 1871 Birth quarter 3 Registration month - Mother's last name - District DERBY County Derbyshire Country England Volume 7B Page 432
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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 13:38 |
Samuel Barton is Mary Ellen second husband who she marries in 1917
The Joseph Doyle that I have found who died in Ohio in A Salvation Army place states that his mother was Ellen Doyle née Leonard which is correct
Potty He gives his fathers occupation as ?elastic weaver deceased
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broomstick
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29 Feb 2016 13:40 |
Potty Joseph gives his occupation as a Railway labourer Mary Ellen also stats she is a widow on her second marriage cert to Samuel Barton :-(
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rootgatherer
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29 Feb 2016 13:48 |
What proof have you of Joseph's age please?
His birth year is different on the 1901 and 1911 census.
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Potty
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29 Feb 2016 13:49 |
Looking at the shipping record, he gives his occupation as Machinist as is 57, 2 years younger than in the 1911 - are you sure this is the same Joseph?
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rootgatherer
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29 Feb 2016 13:52 |
Maybe in 1891?
In 1911 his birth year is 1852
Joseph Doyle Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: Manchester Civil Parish: Litchurch Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Town: Derby County/Island: Derbyshire Country: England Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image Registration district: Derby ED, institution, or vessel: 56 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 2735 Folio: 31 Page Number: 8 Household Members: Name Age Joseph Brane 28 Alexander Brane 26 Eugene Brane 28 Florence Brane 18 James Brane 73 Joseph Doyle 39
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rootgatherer
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29 Feb 2016 13:56 |
Have you eliminated this man?
1871
Joseph Doyle Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851 Relation: Visitor Gender: Male Where born: Manchester Civil Parish: St Werburgh Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke Town: Derby County/Island: Derbyshire Country: England Registration district: Derby Sub-registration district: St Peter ED, institution, or vessel: 18 Household schedule number: 47 Piece: 3568 Folio: 65 Page Number: 10 Household Members: Name Age George Wheatley 45 Ann Wheatley 39 George Wheatley 18 Sarah Wheatley 14 Maria Wheatley 9 Herbert Wheatley 11 James Wheatley 17 Joseph Doyle 20
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