Find Ancestors

(one below)

Chris :)

1891 (Find My Past)
Charles Allen Lodger Single Male 47 1844 House Painter Berkshire (Clewer) England
Rising Hill Street, Clerkenwell, Holborn, London,

It certainly looks like 'Janie' to me Austin, although, if you look at all the other writing on the page the first letter does not match any of the 'J''s - the closest match seems to be to a couple of 'S's???

Dea x

Thanks Dea- so blinking annoying!

Interestingly, the Charles on the 1891 posted above by Chris is listed as single- however, I think this is him in 1871 & 1881, married:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Sutterton Street, Islington, London, England
Charles Allen Head - Male 30 1841 House Painter, Berkshire,
Catherine Allen Wife - Female 27 1844 - Middlesex,
Catherine Allen Niece - Female 4 1867 - Berkshire, England
--------------------------------

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
53, Frampton Park Road, Hackney, London, England

John Allen Head Married Male 82 1799 Carpenter Clerkenwell, Middlesex,
Elizabeth Allen Wife Married Female 78 1803 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex,
Charles Allen Son Head Married Male 41 1840 Painter House Berkshire, (Clewer)
Catherine Allen Wife Married Female 37 1844 - Pimlico, Middlesex,
----------------------------

This Charles married Catherine Jefferey in 1868 Islington (occupation given as House Decorator on marriage certificate). Doesn't look like they had any children.

(below is looking like Witness Margaret mentioned by Nicola above, for 1909 Marriage)

1911 (Find My Past)
Daniel Haggerty Head Married Male Labourer Dust Instructor 40 1871 Whitechapel
Margaret Haggerty Wife Married Female Nil 28 1883 St Lukes
12 St Georges House, Whitechapel, London,

(1911 Mary Ann Allen then with John and Elizabeth Elliott, Bethnal Green, as posted earlier, Whitechapel Infirmary, where she worked)

(that bloomin' place, lol)

Chris :)

(looks like him AQ, that Berks. Charles, did Mary and Charles ever Marry, perhaps not!)


(below posted earlier)

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 (Ancestry)

(1909 Mary Ann Allen, at 11a St. George's house, George Yard, Whitechapel)


Edits

(wonders if Nicola has Death for Mary Ann Allen, did see below)

Abney Park Burial
Common Grave
Wragg, Mary Ann 27feb1945 79 171161 N09 8S06
9 Shrubland Road, Shoreditch


Deaths Mar 1945 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------
Wragg Mary A 79 Shoreditch 1c 59

(born 1863 I know, but thought would just add!)

(No, she is same 1939, with husband Benjamin)



Deaths Jun 1964 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELLIOTT ELIZABETH A 72 BETHNAL GREEN 5C 139

(if this is Elizabeth, her burial below, by looks of it)

Burial Register summary

Elliott Elizabeth Alice
Burial date 11 April 1964
Location Newham

https://www.deceasedonline.com/

Chris- I need your help.

Earlier in the thread, Nyx posted the 1939 register:

Elliott Household 26 Holywell Row , Shoreditch, London, England

Elizabeth A Elliott 14 Mar 1893 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 123 2
John W Elliott 08 Apr 1888 Male Printers Porter Married 123 1
Sarah Ann Holden (Linley) 22 Oct 1910 Female Paper Seller Married 123 3

And Nicola replied:

"This is great. It must be the same family, Holywell Place is John W Elliott and Elizabeth Allen lived up until 1940. "
---------------------------------------

So Elizabeth A Elliott born 14th March 1893-

But Nicola has birth certificate for Elizabeth Alice Allen born 25 April 1892:

"Just found a copy of Elizabeth Alice Allen Birth cert 25th April 1892. Father Charles Allen and Mother Mary Ann Allen formerly Wragg "
------------------------------

Chris- can you help. Am I looking at two different Elizabeths?. Sorry if this is obvious- I seem to be taking longer lately to get things clearer in my head.

Mother- Mary Ann Allen, is not with Elizabeth A, and John W Elliott in 1920. They are living 95 Grosvenor Street, Shoreditch & Stepney.

Elizabeth Alice and John William Elliott at 39 Scrutton Street from 1921 to 1933.

Appearing at 26 Holywell Row in 1934

(lol AQ, no worries, I can't get my head round things either!, Elizabeth doesn't quite add up on 1939, and haven't found a Birth for John W 1888)

Not sure who Nicola is linking to, with John and Elizabeth...

Chris :)

OK, thanks Chris, I think I'll leave this for a bit. I'm losing the plot.

Before John William Elliott and his wife, Eilizabeth Alice moved into 26 Holywell Row, there was a Thomas John Elliott and Elizabeth Frances Elliott living there.

I might come back to this tomorrow

(yes, that's what I couldn't get round, I posted earlier that Thomas John family, but the more you look, the more confusion reigns!, lol)

Think Nicola needs to say what she has in the way of Birth Cert. for John...

Chris :)

(adds reference)

1911 (Find My Past)
Thomas John Elliott Head Married Male Carman 53 1858 London Whitechapel
Elizabeth Frances Elliott Wife Married Female - 50 1861 London Marylebone
Hilda Francis Elliott Daughter Single Female Printers Ruler 15 1896 London Spitalfields
William John Elliott Son - Male School 13 1898 London Spitalfields
1 Elder Court Spitalfields E, Spitalfields, London
Census reference RG14 PN1467 RG78 PN51 RD18 SD1 ED15 SN207
(says Married 25yrs, 8 children born, 5 living, 3 dead)


1901 (Find My Past)
Thomas Elliott Head Married Male 41 1860 Carman Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Elliott Wife Married Female 40 1861 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Frank Elliott Son Single Male 18 1883 Porter Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Bessie Elliott Daughter Single Female 6 1895 Fancy Box Maker Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Thomas Elliott Son Single Male 14 1887 Office Boy Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
Percy Elliott Son Single Male 8 1893 Office Boy Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Hilda Elliott Daughter - Female 5 1896 - Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
William Elliott Son - Male 3 1898 - Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Lolesworth Buildings, 69, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, London,


1891 (Find My Past)
Thomas John Elliott Head Married Male 33 1858 Carman London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Francis Elliott Wife Married Female 30 1861 - London, Middlesex, England
Francis Thos Elliott Son Single Male 18 1873 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Sophia Elliott Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Thomas Wm Elliott Son Single Male 4 1887 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Philip Elliott Son Single Male 0 1891 - London, Middlesex, England
Mary Ann Holborn Boarder Single Female 18 1873 Bag Maker London, Middlesex, England
St Georges House, (10) George Yard, Whitechapel, London

(Baptisms, London, Ancestry, John William, son of above, born January 12 1898)

Birth
ELLIOTT, WILLIAM JOHN (HARBRIDGE)
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 289


Marriages Dec 1882 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Elliott Thomas John St Saviour Southwark 1d 17
HARBRIDGE Elizabeth Frances St. Saviour 1d 17

(on London, Ancestry, Bachelor, Spinster, but on Census above, there is a Son 1873)


(is this your John?)

1901 (Find My Past)
George Elliott Head Married Male 31 1870 News Vendor Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Emily Elliott Wife Married Female 32 1869 - Deptford, Kent, England
John Elliott Son Single Male 12 1889 - Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Sara Elliott Daughter - Female 10 1891 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Alice Elliott Daughter - Female 7 1894 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Phoebe Elliott Daughter - Female 7 1894 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
6, Dorset Street, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, London

Birth
ELLIOTT, PHOEBE ELIZABETH (LOVE)
GRO Reference: 1893 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 772

Birth
ELLIOTT, ALICE LAVINIA (LOVE)
GRO Reference: 1893 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 772


(can see a Baptism for her, but Parents Marriage 1898 Spitalfields, and a witness on that image, Walter Henry Wragg)

Edits (other Elliott Baptisms, Sarah Emma 1890, Alice Lavinia 1893 (same as Phoebe) George Herbert 1898, Emily 1900, William James 1903)

(John William a witness, 1914 Marriage Alice Levina/John James Hopson)


1891 (Find My Past)
Susan Wohlman Head Married Female 56 1835 - Lincolnshire, England
Fred Wohlman Son Single Male 24 1867 Silver Smith London, Middlesex, England
John Wohlman Son Single Male 22 1869 Bras Turner London, Middlesex, England
George Elliott Visitor Married Male 23 1868 Costermonger London (Spitalfields)Middlesex, England
Emily Elliott Visitor Married Female 22 1869 Box Maker London (Deptford) Middlesex, England
John Elliott Visitor - Male 2 1889 - London (St. Luke) Middlesex, England
Sarah Elliott Visitor - Female 0 1891 - London (St. Luke) Middlesex, England
Macclesfield Street, St Luke, Holborn, London


1911 (Find My Past)
Emily Elliott Wife Married Female - 41 1870 London Deptford
Alice Elliott Daughter Single Female Cigarette Cacher 17 1894 London St Lukes
Phoebe Elliott Daughter Single Female Silk Tusel Maker 17 1894 London St Lukes
Emily Elliott Daughter Single Female School 10 1901 London Spitalfield
William Elliott Son Single Male School 7 1904 London Spitalfield
Janeth Elliott Daughter - Female - 1 1910 London Stepney
103 Ernest St Mile End E, Mile End Old Town, London

(for Jane on above)

Birth
ELLIOTT, JANE MATILDA (LOVE)
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 358


Deaths Dec 1906 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
WOHLMAN Susan 71 Shoreditch 1c 54


1901 (Find My Past)
Florence Gardner Head Widow Female 26 1875 Costermonger St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Frederick Gardner Son - Male 7 1894 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
William Gardner Son - Male 5 1896 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Florence Gardner Daughter - Female 3 1898 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Susan Woolman Aunt Widow Female 67 1834 House Maid Boston, Lincolnshire, England
Benjamin Wallace Visitor Single Male 22 1879 Carman St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Block M Guinness Buildings, 277, St Luke, Holborn, London


1871 (Find My Past)
Frederick Wholman Head - Male 39 1832 - Middlesex, England
Susan Wholman Wife - Female 37 1834
Frederick Wholman Son - Male 4 1867
John Wholman Son - Male 2 1869
Rahere Street, St Luke, Holborn, London


Birth
WOHLMANN, FREDERICK GODFREY (BREWSTER)
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in SAINT LUKE MIDDLESEX Volume 01B Page 658

Birth
WOHLMANN, JOHN (BREWSTER)
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in SAINT LUKE MIDDLESEX Volume 01B Page 698


Marriages Jun 1862 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Brewster Susan Hannah St Luke 1b 815
Wohlmann Frederick St Luke 1b 815

I've been seriously wondering how much emphasis we should put on the birth date as shown in the 1939 Register ............. for anyone!!

I know for certain my grandfather's is wrong, and I've come across a number of others where at least one of day, month, year is wrong.

A lot of lying went on back then ........ and probably still does!!!!!

I thank you all, it's a mind field of connections.
100% Facts are
9 St Georges House 1892 birth of Elizabeth Alice Allen, Father Charles Allen and Mary A Wragg
11a St Georges House 1909 marriage of John William Elliott and Elizabeth Alice Allen, fathers George Elliott and Charles Allen.
1911 81 Sclater St Bethnal Green. John W Elliott,Elizabeth A Elliott and her mother Mary A Allen.
1939 26 Holywell Row, Shoreditch John W Elliott, Elizabeth A Elliott.
As Chris says above still 3 questions unanswered ??
What can I do? apply for more certs? but who's?
Will look at all info again but to make matters worse, a relative asked me to search for a 1st marriage for Charles R Elliott born 1920( son of John & Elizabeth Elliott) and found a marriage to a Wolhman in 1944. I had ruled it out as that Charles was born in 1916 and now find George & Emily Elliott( my Charles grandparents) were visitors to Wohlman's in 1891???
If ever I need help, it's with this.

Just to be clear to everyone, this is my family.
My mother is Mary Ann Ricketts born 1933 39 Scrutton St to Frederick Ricketts and Elizabeth A Elliott born 1909.
My mum now 84, lived mostly with her gran parents John W Elliott & Elizabeth A Allen in Shoreditch and Hackney.
Would love to be able to complete some sort of family tree for her, it's proving more difficult than I thought but very grateful for all your help.

Birth for John W, I'd like to know...(George and Emily Love Marriage 1898 Spitalfields)

Is that Elizabeth Alice Death 1964?...

You would need Cert. for that 1944 Marriage, to be sure of things (a surname for variants also!)

Chris :)

(for 1891 above)

Birth
ELLIOTT, SARAH EMILY (LOVE)
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 819

(London, Ancestry, her Baptism 22/3/1891, same address as 1891)

Edits

(oh, here we go!)

London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 (Ancestry)

John William Love
29 Apr 1888 Stepney St John the Evangelist Tower Hamlets
George Love
Emily Love
(Abode, 9 John Street, occ. Newsagent)

Yesss!! Fabulous work Chris.

Although I don't see the birth registered in the indexes.

Death for Elizabeth is likely- she's at Culford Road Hackney in 1964, but not registered there in 1965.

The Doris Wohlmann/ Charles Elliott marriage was in 1939 (not 1944).

In 1947 Charles R Elliott is at 48 Culford Road (no sign of Wife):

Charles R Elliott
Elizabeth A Elloitt
John W Elliott
Ernest Higley
Florence Higley
-----------------------------------

and in 1951 same address:

Ada Baldock
Charles Baldock
Charles R Elliott
Elizabeth A Elliott
John W Elliott

(no AQ, no Birth found for John W, and no Marriage for Mary Ann Ragg (Wragg) Charles Allen)...

(seems as one mystery gets nearer to an end, another one starts, lol)

Chris :)

48 Culford is is where I was born and where my mother lived with her grandparents John W Elliott and Elizabeth A Allen and yes Elizabeth born 1892 died in 1964 at Culford Road.
Charles R Elliott married Joan Hooker in 1952.
So Charles was still living with his parents in 1951 but I don't know who Ada and Charles Baldock are? or indeed who Florence and Ernest Higley are in Culford Road 1947??
Mary (my mum) moved to 48 Culford Rd to live with her gran when she was 14 (1947) and llived there until 1985.

John William Elliott died aged 65 years on the 28th March 1954. As no one can find his birth cert seems likely that he could be the John William Love born 29th April 1888.
Going to order that birth cert now but surely if George Elliott and Emily Love married in 1898, John William Love and their other children born before 1898 would have had to be registered again after the marriage?
Elizabeth Alice Elliott nee Allen died in 1964.

(that's the thing!, there isn't a Birth, not that we can see anyway!, below in case of mistake was near, but...(not fitting!)

Chris :)

Birth
LOWE, JOHN WILLIAM (MUMFORD)
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 497

(no idea why they didn't marry until later, think they did things their own way, lol)


https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

(have a search round on above, then if you are registered on below, you can check for Mother Maiden Name)

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

Edits

Burial Register summary

Elliott John William
Burial date 05 April 1954
Location Newham

https://www.deceasedonline.com/


(and for 1898 (Spitalfields, Christ Church) Marriage, George, Bachelor, occ. Costermonger. Emily, Spinster. his Father, James, occ. Commercial Traveller, her Father, John, occ. Labourer. 10 Paternoster Row, Residence at time for both. Witnesses, Walter Henry Wragg, William Morrish)

Florence Higley living at Culford Road was the daughter of John W Elliott and Elizabeth Alice Allen.

Births Dec 1912
Elliott Florence Mother's maiden name: Allen
Whitechapel 1c 401
---------------------------

Marriages Sep 1931 (>99%)
Elliott Florence Higley Shoreditch 1c 213
Higley Ernest Elliott Shoreditch 1c 213
----------------------------

1939:

Higley Household 101 Granville Buildings , Shoreditch, London, England
Ernest Higley 24 Aug 1912 Male General Labourer Married
Florest (Florence) Higley 08 ? 1912 Female Radio Packer Married

(on the original her dob is 8th September, this was later changed to the 8th of October)
----------------------------

Death:
First name(s) FLORENCE
Last name HIGLEY
Gender Female
Birth date: 8th October 1912
Death quarter 1
Death year 1985
District Tower Hamlets
Register number 385
County London
Volume 14 Page 1382