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I think I have found my grandmother at last.
I have her marriage certificate to my grandfather David Nathan Harris her name given as Mary Ann Robinson. Married 7/8/1899 in walworth fathers name not given. Address 20 Tisdale place Newington.
On1939 records date of birth given as 20/3/1879 GRO have no such record for Mary Ann Robinson
I found that when the birth of her youngest child was registered it gave mothers name as Harris formerly Betts.
In 1891 and 1901 William Betts was living at 20 Tisdale place with his family and wife Mary Ann and in 1891 Mary Ann a daughter was living with them right sort of age for mygrandmother.
Curiously on 5/4/1905 Mary Ann Robinson married William Betts ages 44 and 43 I am almost sure that this is my great grandmothers eventual marriage to William Betts.
Still cannot trace birth registration for my grandmother and am not sure her father was william Betts.
My grandmother was deaf and dumb so I hoped to trace her that way. Any assistance or suggestions on how to proceed would be very much appreciated.

Name: David Nathan Harris
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Age: 21
Spouse: Mary Ann Robinson
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Aug 1899
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Walworth
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: David Harris
Register Type: Parish Register

David given as Bachelor a Carman. His Father is also David a Lime Kiln Burner
Mary as Spinster a General Dealer as you say, no Father's name
Both of 20 Tisdale Place and both signed
Witnesses R Hillman and Jane Goodge

Original says St John's in the Parish of Newington, County of London

Just for ref

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
3 Hearns Buildings Walworth SE, St Mary Newington, London, England


David Harris Head Married Male Hawker Flower 32 1879 Walworth London
Mary Harris Wife Married Female - 32 1879 Walworth London <<<partly deaf & dumb
Mary Harris Daughter - Female - 7 1904 Walworth London
John Harris Son - Male - 3 1908 Walworth London

HARRIS, MARY ELLIS ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1904 J Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 87

HARRIS, JOHN THOMAS ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1908 S Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 64

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
20, Tisdale Place, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Betts Head Married Male 46 1855 Night Watchman Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Mary A Betts Wife Married Female 42 1859 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
William Betts Son Single Male 16 1885 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Elizabeth Betts Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England

BETTS, ELIZABETH MAY ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 163

BETTS, WILLIAM ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 114

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
BETTS, WILLIAM ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 114

BETTS, ELIZABETH MAY ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 163

1911 census has 3 children born to marriage 2 living 1 has died
?? (need to check deaths/census)

BETTS, JAMES ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 142

BETTS, CHARLES ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 114

BETTS, ALFRED ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in ST. SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK LONDON Volume 01D Page 123

BETTS, EMILY ROBINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK LONDON Volume 01D Page 108

VIEW London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: William Betts
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Age: 44
Spouse: Mary Ann Robinson
Spouse Age: 43
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 Apr 1905
Parish: St Mark, Peckham
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: James Betts
Spouse Father: George Robinson <<<<<<<<<<
Register Type: Parish Register

Original shows
William Betts Bachelor a Coster monger. Father James Betts a Leather Dresser
Mary Ann Robinson Spinster. Father George Robison a Coster Monger
Both of 33 Hard Road
It doesn't say either Father's are deceased
Both made their mark
Witnesses - Francis James and Annie Nou - - -

very tenuous but I'll put it just in case, or at least till eliminated. if Minnie listed here is Mary and her mother was actually the Mary Ann born 1861??

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
9, Sterry Street, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London, England


George Harvey Robinson Head Married Male 43 1838 Undertaker Middlesex, England
Mary Ann Robinson Wife Married Female 40 1841 - Middlesex, England
Mary Ann Robinson Daughter Single Female 20 1861 Paper Sorter Middlesex, England
George Robinson Son Single Male 18 1863 Coster Monger Middlesex, England
William Robinson Son Single Male 13 1868 Scholar Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Robinson Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Middlesex, England
Charles Robinson Son Single Male 3 1878 Scholar Middlesex, England
Minnie Robinson Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Middlesex, England

This is the 1891 (at last - FMP have the family as Bells)

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Tisdall Place, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Bells Head Married Male 35 1856 Waterside Labourer London, Middlesex, England
Mary A Bells Wife Married Female 30 1861 - London, Middlesex, England
Mary A Bells Daughter Single Female 13 1878 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
William Bells Son Single Male 6 1885 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Charles Bells Son Single Male 0 1891 - London, Middlesex, England

The posting for George Harvey Robinson looks good. Right area will check 1881 census. Minnie maybe because grandmother and daughter are,also Mary Ann. Also Coster mongers in family. Tisdall place is correct for 1891 . The Betts,/Robinson marriage is the one I found. They left it rather late to marry after all those children, I wonder why. All the rest are correct. Thanks for all the help. Love this site. Started my tree here but the got caught up in ancestry and had forgotten how helpful people are on genes reunited. Many thanks

Late marriages are usually because one of them was already married .......... I know both declare themselves single, but people did lie.

OR maybe they just didn't bother ....... common-law relationships were just as common back then as they are now, if not more common!