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Thank you all for your help in finding my grandfather's
father. I suspected that Alexander was his dad but now
know it is Isaac. As far as Isaac Campbell is concerned
I just can't get my head around it. Once again thank you
all for your help.

Kenny J.

Thank you all for your help in finding my grandfather's
father. I suspected that Alexander was his dad but now
know it is Isaac. As far as Isaac Campbell is concerned
I just can't get my head around it. Once again thank you
all for your help.

Kenny J.

PM sent to Kenneth to let him know there are replies..

Saw below, looks to relate to 1939 posted earlier.

(apologies folks, don't want to interrupt your good work, thought Kenneth might want, if he doesn't already have!)

Chris :)


09 February 1943 - Liverpool Echo - Liverpool, Merseyside, England

REPORTED MISSING
Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Kelly, of Arundel Street, Liverpool, have been notified that their son. Acting Able Seaman Isaac William Kelly, is reported missing. Aged 21, he Is an only son, and has been in the Royal Navy two years. They would be grateful for any information.


Births Jun 1921 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly Isaac W Ainsborough W.Derby 8b 940


https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2369969/kelly,-isaac-william/

Able Seaman KELLY, ISAAC WILLIAM
Service Number P/JX 236093
Died 11/11/1942
Aged 21
H.M.S. President III. Royal Navy

Commemorated at PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

Oh, the suspense, AQ !

____________________

In the meantime -
a possibility for Mary Anne's father:

Isaac Beasley
in the Ireland, City and Regional Directories, 1847-1946
Name: Isaac Beasley
Residence Year: 1847
Street address: 45 Bride street, Dublin
Residence Country: Ireland
Occupation or Trade: Cabinet maker

___________________________

Re the "test house" where Isaac 1871 seems to have been in 1891 - it was on Belmont Road, per the census -

Belmont Road Workhouse
In 1889-90, a "test" workhouse was built on an 18-acre site at Belmont Road. It catered primarily for able-bodied men and women, many of whom were vagrants, providing daily out-relief in return for manual labour.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestDerby/

Just putting things in order for my reference:

April 1867- When Alexander Kelly and Mary Coleman/ Beasley marry they are living at St Anne's Terrace, Liverpool. Alex is a chair maker.

16th April 1869-The first baptism for their son Alexander gives 6 Gerard St, as their abode. Alex senior is a chair maker.

2nd April 1871- Family appears to be on the census at St Anne Street. Alex senior is cabinet maker

29th April 1871- The first baptism for their Isaac gives School lane as their abode. Alex senior is chairmaker
--------------------------------------

I have a wild theory for Sarah Bragger- but needs a little work- I'll come back to this later.

Phew! Thanks for that, AQ!

It's a relief when a wild guess turns out to be right!

Yes, a mystery as to why he was calling himself Campbell.

Another wild suggestion -

As Isaac Kelly isn't on the 1871 census with his brother Alexander, might he have been fostered out to Samuel Campbell and family - his mother had died, maybe ?? - and the enumerator assumed he was a Campbell?
Maybe also accounts for his use of the name later?

And there's no birth record of an Isaac Campbell 1871.


EDIT:
No, Isaac Kelly's mother hadn't died - she's alive and well with other son Alexander in 1871.
Or maybe not - I'm totally confused now .
Too many Mary Annes and Isaacs.

So, why was he calling himself Campbell?? What was he avoiding?

Correct age on burial-

Catholic Burials, 1813-1988

Name: Isiac Campbell
Birth Year: abt 1871
Age: 41
Death Year: abt 1912
Burial Date: 9 Feb 1912
Parish: Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England

AG!

You may have cracked it: Same Ref as Isaac Kelly death

Name: Isaac Campbell
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 38
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 126

Extremely long shot!! Could he have been calling himself Campbell for some reason ?? (Probably sending us off on a wild goose chase here - feel free to shoot me down in flames - for mixed metaphors if nothing else.)

Isaac Kelly is listed as a lodging house keeper on Isaac W's marriage record.



Isaac Campbell
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Isaac Campbell [widower]
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 116 St James Street
Occupation: Lodging house keeper <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Thomas
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3415
Folio: 73
Page Number: 4
Household schedule number: 18




Isaac Campbell
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Isaac Campbell
Age in 1911: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Manager
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 13 Upper Parliament Street Lpool
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Lodging House Manager <<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Liverpool
Registration District Number: 453
Sub-registration district: Abercromby
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 22194



If that isn't Isaac Kelly, then the only other appearance of Isaac Campbell is in 1871, but I can't see a birth for him.

I know the Isaac, son of Samuel Campbell, isn't the one we're looking for, but don't see his family after 1871. He may or may not be the lodging house keeper in 1901 & 1911.


Isaac Campbell
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Isaac Campbell
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's name: Samuel Campbell
Mother's name: Ann Campbell
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthias
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 49
Household schedule number: 205
Piece: 3764
Folio: 54
Page Number: 39
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Campbell 33 - Beer house keeper
Ann Campbell 30
Samuel Campbell 3
Isaac Campbell 1

Probably birth of the son Samuel:
CAMPBELL, SAMUEL JAMES mms WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 22

Don't see an Isaac Campbell birth c 1871.

Maybe ??? Age slightly out. Died before Isaac W's marriage as stated

Deaths Mar 1912 (>99%)
Kelly Isaac 38 Liverpool 8b 126

Having established the Isaac Kelly connection to the Rice family- I'm still not seeing a Kelly/ Bragger connection.

Possibly Isaac in 1891:
ED, Institution or Vessel: West Derby Union Workhouse Test House

First name(s) Isaac
Last name Kelly
Relationship Inmate
Marital status Single
Gender Male
Age 20
Birth year 1871
Occupation Dock Labourer
Birth town Liverpool
Town Walton
Parish Walton on the Hill
County Lancashire
Registration district West Derby
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 2981 Folio 108 Page 4
-----------------------------

Not seeing Isaac on census after 1891

Isaac's mother- this is her first marriage in Dublin:

First name(s) Mary Anne
Last name Beasley
Marriage year 1852
Marriage date 18 Apr 1852
Marriage place St Bridget, Dub, Ire
Father's first name(s) Isaac
Father's last name Beasley
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Coleman
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Coleman
Residence St Bridget, Dublin, Ireland
Place St Bridget
County Dublin
Country Ireland

Getting a little complicated- if that's the correct 1871 census- then Isaac should be on it somewhere - 1871 census taken 2nd April (or perhaps information was given by someone that didn't know she'd had baby?):

Baptism:
Name: Isaac Kelly
Age: 0
Birth Date: 9 Mar 1871
Baptism Date: 23 Apr 1871
Baptism Place: Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Father: Alexander Kelly (chairman)
Mother: Mary Ann Kelly
Abode: School Lane
---------------------------

And a later catholic baptism for Alex and Isaac:

Name: Isaac Kelly
Birth Date: 15 Mar 1871
Baptism Date: 12 Dec 1874
Parish: St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's name: Alexandris Kelly
Mother's name: Mariae Annae Beasley

Name: Alexander Kelly
Birth Date: 16 Mar 1869
Baptism Date: 12 Dec 1874
Parish: St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's name: Alexandris Kelly
Mother's name: Mariae Annae Beasley
---------------------------------------

In 1881 Alexander and brother Isaac are in the Union workhouse school, both listed as born Ireland.

1881
Name: Isaac Kelly
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relationship to Head: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Street address: 1-"Union Workhouse School"
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: The Industrial Schools of the Parish of Liverpool
Piece: 3685 Folio: 41 Page Number: 19

OK- this is related- still working on it:

Marriage:
name(s) Alexander Kelly (Chairmaker)
Age 37
Marriage date 22 Apr 1867
Marriage place Liverpool
Father's name(s) John Kelly
Spouse's name(s) Mary Ann Coleman (widow)
Spouse's birth year 1837
Spouse's birth date 1837
Spouse's father's name(s) Isaac Beasley (chair maker)
Residence (for both) St Anne's Terrace, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Witnesses: James Beasley & ? Beasley

Births
KELLY, ISAAC BEASLEY
GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 196

KELLY, ALEXANDER BAZLEY
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 342
------------------------------------

Mary Ann in 1871:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
St Anne Street Court, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Alexander Kelly Head - Male 40 1831 Cabinet Maker, Ireland
Mary Anne Kelly Wife - Female 30 1841 - Ireland
William Kelly Son - Male 15 1856 - Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Kelly Daughter - Female 13 1858 - Lancashire, England
Alexander Kelly Son - Male 2 1869 - Lancashire, England
---------------------------------------

I suspect that Mary Ann Kelly (daughter), was actually Mary Ann Coleman. (a daughter from her Mum's previous marriage).

So it looks as though Mary Ann Coleman (who married James Rice) had half brother's Alexander and Isaac Kelly.

Rice family in 1891- note Alexander Kelly:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Elm Street, West Derby, Lancashire, England

James Rice Head Married Male 31 1860 Labourer On Railway
Mary Ann Rice Wife Married Female 32 1859 - Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
May Frances Rice Daughter - Female 7 1884 Scholar -
Hannah Rice Daughter - Female 3 1888 - -
Ellen Rice Daughter - Female 1 1890 - -
Alexander Kelly Brother In Law Single Male 22 1869 Book Keeper Liverpool, Lancashire
-------------------------------------

Isaac (William) in 1911:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
23 Nursery Street Liverpool N, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

James Rice Head Married Male Dock Labourer 51 1860 Lancs Liverpool
Mary Ann Rice Wife Married Female At Home 52 1859 Dublin
John Rice Son Single Male At Home 14 1897 Lancs Liverpool
Hannah Rice Daughter Single Female Tin Plate Worker 23 1888 Lancs Liverpool
Ellen Rice Daughter Single Female Tin Plate Worker 21 1890 Lancs Liverpool
Catherine L Rice Daughter Single Female Tobacconist Packer 18 1893 Lancs Liverpool
William Kelly Nefew Single Male Coal Porter 16 1895 Lancs Liverpool

another version of Isaac William Kelly's baptism, from ancestry

Liverpool, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Isaac William Kelly
Age: 0
Birth Date: 3 Jun 1894
Baptism Date: 18 Jun 1894
Baptism Place: Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Liverpool, St Peter' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Father: Isaac Kelly
Mother: Sarah Kelly

from image:-
Address:- Newhall St
Father occupation:- Labourer

Death

Name: Isaac William Kelly
Birth: 4 Jun 1894
Death: Jun 1980 - Liverpool, Merseyside, England

From 1901 census posted above:

RICE, MARY FRANCES mms COLLMAN
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 353

RICE, ELLEN mms COLEMAN
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 518

Therefore parents' marriage:

Marriages Dec 1881 (>99%)
Coleman Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 377
RICE James Liverpool 8b 377


So far, can't see any Bragger / Rice, or Bragger /Coleman marriages, if Isaac's mother had been married before.
Nor Kelly/Rice , Kelly/Bragger, nor Kelly/Coleman