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PM received from Thomas:

"They are the same person
1932 John Arthur Jones
1933 Frank Arthur Jones "

pm received:-

Charles arthur johns
Born 15 7 1936 Hendon

John Arthur Jones was jobbing gardener.
Jim David jones father

For elimination purposes

Marriages Jun 1924 (>99%)

Jones John A Theed Hendon 3a 814
Theed Ethel M Jones Hendon 3a 814

Jones Household (7 People)
9 Lily Gardens , Wembley M.B., Middlesex, England


John A Jones 13 May 1903 Male Store Keeper Married 222 1
Ethel M Fraser (Jones) 25 Apr 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 222 2
Frank A J Jones 26 Oct 1925 Male At School Single 222 3
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Lilian M King (Theed) 18 Jul 1913 Female Daily Domestic Single 222 7

It is a little confusing!

I suspect that John Arthur Jones (listed as jobbing gardener in 1932 when his son was born), and Frank Arthur Jones are the same man. It's likely that John/ Frank was still married in 1932- hence the fudging of information.

Frank Arthur Jones appears on the electoral register with Beatrice Muriel (Jones) in 1933. When he marries Beatrice in 1937 he's listed as a widower.

I've been through some of the Francis A Jones marriages (Those before 1932)- and have traced the couples through- nothing stands out yet. I've more to get through, and then of course there's the John Arthurs to start on!! I've a busy few days, but if nothing turns up by the time I'm free I'll carry on looking.

Thanks, AQ - I'm totally confused!

AG-

John A Jones- father of the child born 1932 was a jobbing gardener (as on the 1932 birth certificate).

Frank A Jones- who married in 1937 was chauffeur ( commercial ) and his father, James, was a master baker.

From Thomas's posts, it seems that Frank's father was said to be a master baker, on Frank's marriage cert.

John A's father, on John A's birth cert, was a jobbing gardener.

So either (a) Frank and John A are different people
(b) The father had changed his occupation,
(c) someone made a mistake on one or other of the certs.


EDIT:

Actually, Thomas, you first asked where John A / frank was born.
That means you don't have his birth cert.

Then later you say that on John A's birth cert his father (presumably) was a jobbing gardener.

Do you have John A's birth cert or not?

If so, please tell us everything it says.

AQ -

I didn't really think he was, but that was the only James Henry Jones who was a baker and also had a son either John or Frank/Francis!

There were (as far as I remember without looking them up again) three other James Henry Joneses who were bakers, but no sons of the right name or age..

Again...what about the two children Jones/James born in Brentford before Jim?...there is no obvious marriage of their parents? Have they been eliminated from enquiries?

AG- I dont think those census are connected to the chap Thomas is looking for. That John married Victoria May Knight in 1923 and was living with his wife and father in 1939 (Below):

Jones Household (7 People) 97-101 Crown Hotel Chancery Lane , Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

James Henry Jones 18 May 1869 Male Operative Baker (Retired) Widowed
John Jones 27 Nov 1895 Male Hotel Manager Married
Victoria May Jones 22 Jun 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Dorothy Borthwick (Jones) 26 Aug 1924 Female Shop Assistant Drapery Single
Sorry, this record is officially closed.
Annie Wiseman (Tassaten) 22 Mar 1912 Female Bar General (Hotel) Single
Ruth Taylor 08 Sep 1883 Female Bar General (Hotel) Married

Thomas -

Thanks, but Edith Butler is nothing to do with your search for John/Frank, so there's no need to muddy the waters on your thread.

If you really do want to contact me about Edith, please send a private message by clicking on my name at the top of my post.

I found this ages ago. I searched baker /master baker.
I looked at David and John
It’s finding the connection

Have searched Edith Butler .born near Banbury Oxen
Did Edith have second name ?.
Looked marriage s in London found nothing

Using https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
supplemented by https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ for Bs thru 1917 and Ds thru 1957

In addition some local BMD indexes are online - see:
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
in particular
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

I've appended the quarter of registration to the date
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
1891q4 JONES Maggie HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/76/9
1893q2 JONES Harry HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/78/74
1895q4 JONES John HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/83/68
1897q4 JONES David HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/87/17
1900q3 JONES Martha HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/91/98
1902q4 JONES James Richard HALL Heaton Norris Stockport HEA/96/46
1905q1 JONES Ernest HALL Stockport Third Stockport ST3/3/62
1908q1 JONES Lucy Hannah HALL Stockport Second Stockport ST2/9/36
1910q2 JONES Mary HALL Stockport Third Stockport ST3/10/60
1913q3 JONES May HALL Stockport Third Stockport ST3/15/18
1918q2 JONES John HALL Stockport Third Stockport ST3/21/30
1919q4 JONES Edith May HALL Stockport First Stockport ST1/35/69

[To identify correct Mary
JONES, MARY HULL Order
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 103
JONES, MARY CLAYTON Order
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 35 ]

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
1891q1 JONES James Henry HALL Mary Elizabeth Heaton Norris, Christ Church Stockport ST5/4/202


Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
JAMES Elsie May BIRKS 1906 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Charlton Kings 4A 45
JAMES Ernest Frederick BIRKS 1907 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Charlton Kings 4A 275
JAMES John Henry BIRKS 1907 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Charlton Kings 4A 276
JAMES David S BIRKS 1908 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Guiting 24 444
JAMES Frank W BIRKS 1908 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Guiting 24 445
JAMES Beatrice M BIRKS 1909 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Guiting 25 86
JAMES Victor E BIRKS 1911 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Guiting 25 264

JAMES, ELSIE MAY BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in CHELTENHAM Volume 06A Page 432

JAMES, ERNEST FREDERICK BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in CHELTENHAM Volume 06A Page 423

JAMES, JOHN HENRY BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in CHELTENHAM Volume 06A Page 423

JAMES, DAVID SIDNEY BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 355

JAMES, FRANK WILLIAM BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 355

JAMES, BEATRICE MURIEL BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 377

JAMES, VICTOR EMMANUEL BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1911 M Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 374

JAMES, FRANCIS EDWARD BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1171

JAMES, GLADYS IVY BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1136 Occasional Copy: A

JAMES, EMILY BIRKS Order
GRO Reference: 1917 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1065

Births Mar 1918 (>99%)
James Rachel V Birks Pontypridd 11a 1147


Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry
JAMES Frank William 1 1910q1 Winchcombe, Guiting 15 279


Marriages Jun 1904 (>99%)
Birks Lucy Fanny King's N. 6c 783
Buggins Arthur Ernest King's N. 6c 783
James Obed Henry King's N. 6c 783
Smith Fanny King's N. 6c 783

Deaths Jun 1945 (>99%)
James Obed H 69 Neath 11a 714

Births Jun 1876 (>99%)
JAMES Obed Henry Westbury S. 6a 250

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
JAMES Obed Henry PAINTER 1876 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 40 233

Births Sep 1886 (>99%)
BIRKS Lucy Fanny W. Bromwich 6b 852

BIRKS, LUCY FANNY HOUNSON Order
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 852

http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/
West Midlands Birth indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Reference
BIRKS Lucy F Wednesbury Sandwell Register Office WED/83/286



JAMES, LUCY FANNY 34 Order
GRO Reference: 1918 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 602

This James Henry Jones is a baker, though his son John is a few years older than Frank states he is :


James Henry Jones
in the 1911 England Census
Name: James Henry Jones
Age in 1911: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Stockport, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Stockport
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: 21 Church Street Heaton Norris Stockport Lanc
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Operative Baker , Bread baker <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Stockport
Registration District Number: 443
Sub-registration district: Stockport Third
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 21409
Household Members:
Name Age
James Henry Jones 41
Mary Elizabeth Jones 40
Harry Jones 18
John Jones 15
Martha Jones 10
David Jones 13
James Richard Jones 8
Ernest Jones 6
Mary Jones 1



James Henry Jones
in the 1901 England Census
Name: James Henry Jones
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Mary Elizabeth Jones
Birth Place: Stockport, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Stockport
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Stockport
Sub-registration district: Heaton Norris
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3286
Folio: 121
Page Number: 25
Household schedule number: 177
Household Members:
Name Age
James Henry Jones 31 - journeyman bread baker
Mary Elizabeth Jones 30
Maggie Jones 9
Harry Jones 8
John Jones 5
David Jones 3
Martha Jones 10/12

PM from Thomas, in response to my request for all the info on John/Frank & Beatrice's marriage cert:

Beatrice Muriel James domestic servant 30 yrs old spinster
Frank arthur Jones chauffeur commercial 38 yrs. old widower
Beatrice s father Obed Henry James
Franks father James Henry James master baker (presumably Thomas means Jones)


So Catherine has found the right family.

Thomas, could you just confirm who had the occupation of a jobbing gardener please?

If you found that on the birth certificate of John Arthur, then it can't be his own occupation so was that his father's occupation?

You said earlier that his father was a Master Baker so I'm a little confused.

If you have the birth certificate for john Arthur Jones, then it should also give his mother's name?

I think from the info I found earlier we can safely say that Beatrice wasn't married before.

Marriage cert info 9 th aug 1937 Beatrice Muriel James 30 yrs Domestic Servant
Frank Arthur Jones " chauffeur ( commercial ) Hendon Middx

Jim David Jones 3rd feb 1932 Warkworth houseTwickenham Rd Isleworth U D.
Father John Arthur Jones Mother Beatrice Muriel Jones formerly James.

Beatrice Muriel James Born 27 10 1909 Temple Guiting Gloustershire.
Adults 5 children 1939 Byron hill rd.

John Arthur Jones birth cert was a jobbing gardener

Don t know if Beatrice was married before

Thanks Nyx,
Just wondering if she lied about her age as death shows her year of birth as 1909?
Wouldn't be the first time.