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I'm trying to figure out how and when my GG-Grandfather Robert Murray died. He was born in Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire in 1817, and had three children, including my G-Grandfather George Durward Murray in 1853. From the marriage notes it is clear that he was a mariner, and in fact I have recently found masters certificates from 1851 and 1852 listing a large amount of time spent at sea (which will explain why he is not very obvious in censuses). The mystery is this - the last entry I can see for him is the church record of George Durward's birth in 1853, and we know that GD's mother Mary (nee Duncan) remarried in 1862 (becoming Mary Lawrie) and was listed on the marriage certificate as a widow (she's listed as Mary Murray / head of the family in the 1861 census). However - try as I might I can't find any evidence of a death for Robert and wonder if he perhaps died at sea somewhere?

Any thoughts would be hugely appreciated! I've tried the Inverclyde intimations site for the dates 1853 - 1862 and found nothing, likewise the British Newspaper Archives (online). There appear to be a couple of records in the Merchant Navy files at the National Archives but I haven't yet been able to see them - and I guess there is a chance that they may be simply the originals of the masters certificates that I've already tracked down on ancestry ... I'm waiting for my loca familysearch centre to get back to me to let me look at them online ..

Cheers,
Bill

Please delete the post you added to Cathy's thread - it will cause considerable confusion if people add to both

Done - apologies (newbie).

No apology needed

Hope you get some results

Welcome to the boards Bill.

If his widow didn't remarry until 1862, might she have claimed poor relief? I'm not sure if The Mitchell Library holds the poor relief records for Port Glasgow. I'm thinking ifshe claimed relief, the record would give a year of death and place of death if he died at sea. It would possibly name his parents too. I was lucky to find the date and place of death of my 2xGreat grandmother's first husband through the poor relief records.

Rootgatherer - thanks, I hadn't thought of that and will go and have a look (at a first glance I can see an index for Port Glasgow Poor Relief online and it doesn't include her name but I'll look again tomorrow when I'm more awake).

What I find quite strange is that clearly Robert was qualified as a Master, so I would have thought there would have been some documentation of his death ... I must just be looking in the wrong place!

I'm working on the assumption too that for her remarriage Mary simply had to attest to the fact that she was a widow....

Cheers,
Bill

Looks like Mary was the official tenant in 1855 (address in 1861 is church Street):

MURRAY
MRS
Tenant Occupier
DWELLING NO 1237 CHURCH STREET
PORT GLASGOW
1855
VR007100001-

Of course that could just be because Robert was away a lot - not necessarily that he was deceased.

Found these on Findmypast but don't have a sub now so can't see if any are for your man:-

Robert Murray 1853 Hurricane Great Britain BT 153 Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889
View transcript. View image.

Robert Murray 1857 Dss of Sutherland Great Britain BT 153 Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889
View transcript. View image.

Robert Murray 1858 Curlew Great Britain BT 153 Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889

..............maybe someone else can have a look

Or - just a long shot - maybe they separated and remarried other people ?

If Robert retired from sea-going:


Robert Murray
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: Robert Murray
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary Murray
Gender: Male
Where born: Greenock, Renfrewshire
Registration Number: 564/3
Registration district: Greenock West
Civil Parish: Greenock West
County: Renfrewshire
Address: 8 Tabago St
Occupation: Lab Ship Building Yard <<<<<<<<<<<<
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 21
LINE: 18
Roll: cssct1881_166
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Murray 64
Mary Murray 53
Jane Murray 20

British armed forces and overseas deaths and burials Transcription

First name(s) Robert
Last name Murray
Birth year -
Death year 1853
Death date 5 Oct 1853
Place Hurricane
Country Great Britain
Type At Sea
Vessel name Hurricane
Home port Glasgow
Departure port -
War -
Source Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889
Archive reference BT 153
Box 0001
Page 280
Archive The National Archives

Number of Reg. ticket - 537.851
Date of engagement 7.6.53
Died at sea - looks like 5.12.53
Paid - 4.2.54 at Well Street
Amount £9 4s

--------------------------------
British armed forces and overseas deaths and burials Transcription

First name(s) Robert
Last name Murray
Birth year -
Death year 1857
Death date 23 Aug 1857
Place Dss of Sutherland
Country Great Britain
Type At Sea
Vessel name Dss Of Sutherland
Home port Glasgow
Departure port -
War -
Source Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889
Archive reference BT 153
Box 0003
Page 33
Archive The National Archives
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

Ticket No not recorded
Place and date death and cause if reported - dittoed from person above - ? Fever at ?? 23.8.57
When paid - 17.12.57
where paid - ? L'pool
Amount paid £1 3s 8d

---------------------------------
British armed forces and overseas deaths and burials Transcription
Print View image Add to tree
First name(s) Robert
Last name Murray
Birth year -
Death year 1858
Death date 16 Nov 1858
Place Curlew
Country Great Britain
Type At Sea
Vessel name Curlew
Home port Sundd (?? Sunderland??)
Departure port -
War -
Source Registers Of Wages And Effects Of Deceased Seamen, 1852-1889
Archive reference BT 153
Box 0003
Page 216
Archive The National Archives
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

Ticket number not recorded
Date of engagement - 13.9.58
Place/date/cause if reported - supposed ??Drowned? --- Cadiz
Vessel lost 16.11.58
Where paid - Sunderland
Amount paid - £5 6s 2d

You probably have this, Bill - and it doesn't help with your query -

he was first indentured in 1834:


Rt Murray
in the UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910
Name: Rt Murray
Age: 16
Birth Year: abt 1818
Registration or Indenture Date: 28 Mar 1834
Port of Registry: Port Glasgow
Vessel: Joanna

He was indentured for 4 years.
Master of the ship was John Murray - a relative ?

Thanks everyone (so far) - great information and a few new pointers for me ... any other thoughts still welcome!!
Cheers,
Bill

Afternoon all - again thanks for the information thus far. It led me to spend some time looking at the Mates certificate (granted as number 64151 - his register ticket was 93348) in 1851. Lo and behold, it gave his address as being in Liverpool (near the port) in late March 1851 and sure enough, he appears in the census there. Here's where it gets interesting, as he has a wife Margaret (not Mary) and a child Margaret (a new one to me as his daughter was also Mary) listed there (both interestingly having their birth places as Scotland).

There are a couple of scenarios here, noting that this is a couple of years before my gg-grandfather was born (so they had two children at that time).

1. The "Margaret" entries in the English census are wrong and should say Mary - both the age of the mother and the daughter would match. And - I can see the other child resident with grandparents in Port Glasgow.

2. This is a second wife and child.

Obviously I'd prefer to believe the former ... any other thoughts?

Cheers,
Bill

P.S. I think regardless we can rule out the first of the three "death-at-sea" Robert Murrays as the ticket numbers don't match ...

For our reference:


Robert Murray
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Robert Murray
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret Murray
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 8 Moorfields
View image
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Dale Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 1bb
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 55
Piece: 2179
Folio: 876
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Murray 34 - mariner
Margaret Murray 31 - Scotland
Edward Parke 30 - lodger
Ann Parke 26 - lodger's wife
Margaret Merray 2 - daughter, Scotland [Murray on image ]

I'm assuming this is Mary in 1861?

In which case her birth year does not match - unless the transcription's wrong:

Mary Murray
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name: Mary Murray
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Pt Glasgow, Renfre
Registration Number: 574
Registration district: Port Glasgow
Civil Parish: Port Glasgow
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Church St Nesmith
Occupation: Labaccowist
ED: 12
Household schedule number: 47
LINE: 5
Roll: CSSCT1861_81
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Murray 32
George L Murray 7
Janet Mcdonald 13

Re the child Margaret in Liverpool in 1851 - perhaps she could be this child ???

MURRAY
MARGARET
ROBERT MURRAY/MARGARET URE FR6062 (FR6062)
F
12/12/1848
644/1
380 298
Glasgow


I haven't yet investigated this family to see where they were in 1851.


Marriage:

URE
MARGARET
ROBERT MURRAY/FR7780 (FR7780)
04/08/1846
644/1
430 208
Glasgow

Hi - re the age discrepancy for Mary Murray in the 1861 Scottish census. She should be 40/41 at this point, but shows as 32. Reason that I'm sure it's my 2x GG Grandmother is because of some other information on the form ...

1 - there is a Robert Murray child, matching the known sibling of my 2x GG
2 - the Durward family, listed in the same house, have a connection with Mary Murray (nee Duncan) which has never quite been unravelled. I think, in simple terms, Mary Duncan was adopted by George Durward (also Dorward/Dorwood and his wife Margaret) and is first listed as an employee of theirs in the 1841 census. We've never figured out exactly what the story is, but Mary Murray's listed parents on subsequent documentation (marriage and death certs) are completely inconsistent so we don't know if it was an illigetimacy or orphaned.

So - I've always assumed (in the absence of other evidence) that it was either a transcription error, or that she was unclear about her age to the census taker (either deliberately or not).

Apoogies for what now seems such a complicated and twisted story!!

Cheers,
Bill