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I'm glad it's worked out so well for you, Linda.

Thanks for letting us know.

As far as getting Frank's death cert is concerned, you don't need his exact date of birth or death - just order via SP once the present situation is over, quoting the details given by Greyghost on page 1. (18th April at 11:28)

Hi AG, just thought I would give you a bit of an update. The owner of the Lutfi family tree has responded to my message. Anna Maureen was her birth mother, Frank was NOT her birth father, she was adopted out and is still currently looking for the identity of her BF. She was born and bred in Scotland but now lives happily in Western Australia. She has given me the name of two of Frank and Maureens children and there was possibly a third adopted out. Apparently Anna had a very sad life and the Lutfi owner is going to give me the story on this, the children also apparently had it very tough. The Margaret Ford that you mentioned WAS married to Frank, in fact she married three times in all. I now also have Franks dob and death date which will make it easier to get a death certificate. Progress has been made of which I never thought possible. Hope you are well and thanks again for all your hard work...

If Mary Elizabeth 1936 is actually the daughter of Mary and William, married 1936, she must have been born just before their marriage, as she's registered as Archbold, not Robertson.

This MIGHT be the reason that Anna is registered as Archbold at death, and not Robertson, even though Robertson comes into the marriage records.

That's IF - IF - she is the same person.

Morning AG, yes I was having a real good look at the tree last night and found that William Miller Robertson married Mary Archbold in 1936, Mary died at 30 in 1943. There seems to be so many bits to look at. I`d planned to send a message to the tree owner after I`ve printed stuff off in case they hide it all and then I won`t be able to see anything. So many mysteries with this......With Agnes Robertson there`s a nice photo, wonder who the man is? Thank you again AG

Looking again at the tree, and wondering if perhaps after all there's any truth in their claim that Mary Elizabeth and Anna Maureen were the same person -

this is the Archbold/Robertson marriage mentioned in the tree;:

ARCHBOLD
MARY
ROBERTSON
WILLIAM MILLER
1936
685/5 105
George Square

The tree owner says they are the parents of Mary Elizabeth Archbold, and this is her birth:

ARCHBOLD
MARY ELIZABETH
F
1936
685/2 143
St Andrew (Edinburgh)

The tree then implies that Mary Elizabeth changed her name to Anna Maureen Elizabeth, and married Abdul and Wladislaw (no dates or places given) , and also died as Anna Maureen Elizabeth.

On the face of it, this is a case of mistaken identity and poor researching, confusing Mary with Anna.
On the other hand, as I can't find a 1936 birth for Anna, whose mms was Archbold - who knows? Maybe it's correct!
It's a pity the tree gives no proof.

It would be interesting to see what either of Anna's marriage certs says her father's name was.


According to the tree, Mary Elizabeth had two other partners (unnamed) and a child with each of them (also unnamed). Again, no dates or places given.

It also says she had two children with Wladislaw - but it hasn't picked up on his change of name to Frank Ray.

Although Robertson is shown on SP as one of Anna's surnames at both her marriages, it's not given on her death record. At death, she's listed as Ray, Lutfi, and Archbold. Strange.


While you have your free trial, you could click on the tree owner's name and send them a message.

You're welcome!

Thank you so much for today AG, you have been absolutely amazing <3

What's on a Scottish death cert is explained here:

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/statutory-register-deaths

Scroll down to "Understanding the content in statutory death records."


To find the reference to the 1958 son,on the tree, click on Mary Elizabeth's name, then on the link to her son, who's just listed as Lutfi.
Then you'll see links to a few US records - click on "View" in the top right corner of any of those. The word "View" doesn't appear until you hover over the link to the record.

Yes you`re right I must not jump to conclusions, easy to do isn`t it, do you know at all what info a Scottish death certificate actually has on it, I`m pretty sure it won`t be the same as a UK one which doesn`t have an awful lot apart from obvious things such as cause of death etc and informant. I found what I was looking for on Ancestry but not the name Eman, yes I had actually been wondering about the Robertson connection myself

I`m really sorry to trouble you again AG but which box and which category etc did you put Wladyslaw Rudowicz name in on Ancestry, nothing seems to come up for me, I`ve signed up for 10 day trial. Same as Free BMD I NEVER have any luck on there, I`m bloody useless I know

The 1955 marriage isn't necessarily your Frank/Wladislav .

I just posted it as a possibility, because of the name.
Also I couldn't see any death for that Wladislav before Margaret's remarriage, so I felt it was possible they'd separated and he'd moved elsewhere.

You'd need to see the cert, for his age, etc, to be sure.


A Wladislaw Rudowicz was in Australia in the 1960s - 80's (died 1988), so it's also possible that he's the one who had married Margaret, and not your Frank/Wladislaw.
That one was born in 1912, which is close to Margaret's age - if that matters.

Jumping to conclusions without seeing actual records is always dangerous - as seems to have been the case with the Ancestry tree owner!

Interesting that Anna's mother was Archbold.

An Anna Maureen Robertson was born in Aberdeen in 1944 - but that doesn't match her age at death, which suggests she was born c1936.

I don't see an Archbold/Robertson marriage.

What I meant was that you managed to find out about Franks first marriage to Margaret in 1955, the year I was born actually

Yes, you can cancel the Ancestry free trial before it ends. (It's 14 days, but cancel by approx 12 days just to be sure.)

In fact, you MUST do that if you don't want to carry on with a full sub, or they'll take your money automatically when the free trial ends.


"If a free trial is canceled during the trial period, the trial will end automatically, and you will not be charged. Free trials on Ancestry automatically turn into paid subscriptions after two weeks."
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/offers/freetrial

This 10 day trial thing that Ancestry have (otherwise I can`t look at anything) can it be cancelled just before it ends? cheeky I know

Re the Ancestry tree, I searched for Wladislaw Rudowicz born 1926 in Poland.

You say you remember Frank's first marriage.

You can look that up on FreeBMD and order a copy through the GRO site.
As far as I'm aware, you can still order an English/Welsh cert, even though you can't get a Scottish one at present.

That would give you his father's name.

I think the site is having problems at the moment but can I ask what name you put in the search that brought up the family tree please

Oh AG I will have to have a look at that if I can (I did originally use Ancestry for my dna test and then upload to MyHeritage etc) The tree on MH has the same info about the mum and dad. Wow what an interesting discovery! I`m not sure if Frank got evacuated to Scotland straight away because I was born more London way and remember Franks first marriage, that was London way. I didn`t find out until my 20`s that my `dad` wasn`t There is no way they have got the right person, the records on Anna Maureen on SP do give her mothers name as Archbold though. Thank you so much for letting me know, I wouldn`t have even thought about looking on there...

A tree on Ancestry ( the owner is someone connected to a Lutfi family ) claims that Wladislaw's father was Antoni Rudowicz, and his mother was Zofia Kiljewicz, and that he was born in Poland.

Unfortunately no proof is offered .

The tree claims that he married a Mary Elizabeth Archbold (1936 - 2008) - (no date or place of marriage given) and that they had two children.

This is where credibility appears to break down; as it says that Mary Elizabeth later married Abdul Lutfi and had a child in 1958 in Persia.
Then it says she died as Anna Maureen Ray !

At first glance, it looks as if not enough research has been carried out.
But as no proof is offered , it's impossible to tell.


There's no way of knowing if the "info" about Wladislaw's supposed parents is correct or not.
So far, I don't see any records to support it.


EDIT:
BUT on second thoughts, and with apologies to tree owner - see later posts on page 3 !