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Goodness me you know your stuff!

I have just posted on Roots as well as I seem to be totally up the wrong tree here.

I think its best if I go back to the last absolute defo I have which is the 1851 census and start again.

This is my dads side of the family. He is from Lancashire and I had no idea - i don't think he did either - that his family originated in Norfolk. I am finding it totally absorbing!

I started doing my husbands as well, we thought he was Irish but turns out he is German!!

I really am grateful for all the help you are giving me, thank you

He is not your James.

I discovered he was married, firstly by following Ancestry's suggestion that the James in 1901 was the one who died in 1910 - but then (as Ancestry's suggestions aren't always correct) followed it up by checking to see if that James in 1901 was still there in 1911 - and he wasn't.

The 1910 death is the only one in the right registration district between 1901 and 1911.

The marriage record was also an Ancestry suggestion, but fits in well with the other info.

Marriages Dec 1873 (>99%)
Briers Emily Erpingham 4b 176
Johnson James Erpingham 4b 176


The same man is in earlier censuses:

with wife Emily and children in 1891 and 1881 in Sheringham - a fisherman;

in 1871 he's a master fisherman, with (presumably) his brothers, on the family fishing boat:

James Johnson
in the 1871 England Census
Name: James Johnson
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: 1838
Relation: Master Fisherman (Master)
Gender: Male
Where born: Sherringham Norfolk England
Civil parish: Vessels
Town: Grimsby Fish Dock
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Registration district: Caistor
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: Gatherer
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 3418
Folio: 33
Household Members Age Relationship
James Johnson 33 Master Fisherman (Master)
Henry Johnson 36 Mate Fisherman (Mate)
John Johnson 41 Fisherman
Matthew Johnson 30 Fisherman
Henry Johnson 27 Fisherman
Jonah West
32 Fisherman
John West 20 Fisherman
John Farrah 34 Fisherman


In 1861, 1851, and 1841 he's with his parents Matthew and Martha, and siblings.

He is never a pauper


I'm not seeing the burials you mention anywhere.

there are 2 deaths of james johnson 0ne 8th and one 12th, both give age as 72.... how did you know he has a widow as I didnt see any in the parish record.....

thanks ever so for all your help, you are a real star

Thanks. I do know about Freecen and FS - just hadn't looked for him there!


Well, that burial relates to the death and censuses I posted.

Age 72 in 1910 means birth c1838.

His widow Emily (nee Briers) was living at West Cliff End in 1911, as posted earlier.
That man's father's name was Matthew, per the parish marriage record I posted..

its this site which has census and also parish reg:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/freecen_coverage?locale=en

and here:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/
which has lists of almost everything

I try to get info from one and then verify through another.

Also:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/England_Genealogy
where you can fin and view and download original parish records from most of the uk

My James was buried at All Saints, Sheringham 08/04/1910 aged 72, last living at West Cliff which is the road right next to Victoria Street where he had a bed previously.

Still trying to find the census "afloat" for 1861 & 1871 - I now know the census was taken at sea by the captains of any vessel not in port that night, some are stored at the maritime museum but I cant locate the little fishing boat ones....I shall keep digging!!

Stay safe
Caroline

Just for interest, where are you finding the info about him being on the streets, please?
And the burial?

That 1910 death is the only one on FreeBMD, in Erpingham RD, for a James Johnson, between 1890 and 1930.

There are a couple of "Unknown male" deaths, in 1910, but aged 40 and 22, so far too young to be your James.

There's also this one in 1913, with unknown age:

UNKNOWN, - Not Known
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in ERPINGHAM Volume 04B Page 85

No, I hand tseen that one but that’s not him.

I have been on this all day today! Seems my James was in a very sad state from 1885 to his death in 1910. He was living on the streets and then in one night lodging rooms...or rather beds.

I don’t think he has married. My feeling - and it is just a feeling- is that times were VERY hard and he went onboard a fishing boat. His father Thomas was a fish seller and labourer and his mums father was a fisherman . Where he was on the streets is right by where the boats would have been. I think the reason he isn’t on a census from 1851 may be because he was at sea on census nights. There is a list somewhere of crewmen onboard during census nights but I haven’t found where that is yet.

I wish I had a time machine, it’s so sad when I can’t find them.

Do you mean this death?

Deaths Jun 1910 (>99%)
Johnson James 72 Erpingham 4b 43

If the age at death, given to the registrar, is correct (and may not be), that man was born c1838.

The only way to be sure if that's your James or not is to buy a copy of the death cert, and then perhaps follow up on any clues - such as informant's name, if a family member.


Ancestry suggests (not that it's always correct) that that death is of this man:

James Johnson
in the 1901 England Census
Name: James Johnson
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Emily Johnson
Birth Place: Sheringham, Norfolk, England <<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Sheringham
Ecclesiastical parish: Sheringham All Saints
Town: Sheringham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street Address: Bon Accord
Occupation:
Registration District: Erpingham
Sub-registration District: Cromer
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors:
Piece: 1825
Folio: 159
Page Number: 33
Household Schedule Number: 270
Household Members:
Name Age
James Johnson 61 - fisherman
Emily Johnson 51
James R Johnson 22
Annie Johnson 17

Emily is certainly a widow by 1911:

Emily Johnson
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Emily Johnson
Age in 1911: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Barnet, Hertfordshire
Civil Parish: Sheringham
Country: England
Street Address: West Cliff End, Sheringham
Marital status: Widowed
Registration District Number: 222
Sub-registration District: Sheringham
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Piece: 11199
Household Members:
Name Age
Emily Johnson 62
James Robert Johnson 32
Annie Eliza Johnson 27
Catherine Mary Johnson 35


Their marriage:

James Johnson
in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name: James Johnson
Gender: Male
Age: 35
Birth Date: 1838
Marriage Date: 23 Dec 1873
Marriage Place: Sheringham, Norfolk, England
Father: Matthew Johnson <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse: Emily Briers
FHL Film Number: 2262645
Reference ID: 148

That man's father's name was Matthew - so not your James


Most of us have somebody in our tree who just disappears from the records.
It's frustrating, but sometimes you have to accept a dead end.

and now I have found a burial hich fits all the dates and places etc, think i am now on the right track.
All i have missing is what he did between 1851 and 1887. In 1887 he is living on the streets in Victoria road area of Sheringham which seems to be where the pauper/poor/homeless congregate, his death is recorded in the same place in 1910 which is also the last record of him living anywhere.

Not the USA. cannot find anything which gives me proof or evidence to convince me he went overseas. i struggled with how he would biy a ticket as they were VERY poor - paupers.

I have found a James Johnson in Sheringham, mostly living in a dwelling house or on the street from 1892 to 1910.

its like doing a jigsaw where someone has obliterated the picture!!

Thanks. I have thoroughly and I mean thoroughly searched the uk, wondered if he had relocated to another county etc,

I promise I shall continue to be cautious in my researching, I can’t cope with getting all wrong lol.

I like more than 2 pieces of evidence and I like to link...if I can’t find a decent link I usually won’t go that route. The USA does look very promising though.

Stay safe and many thanks again
Caroline

Be careful not to jump at any slight possibility without further proof.

Not saying that's not him emigrating - perhaps it is - but James Johnson isn't an unusual name.

There are lots of records of various sorts for men named James Johnson, born c1832 in England, in the USA alone, not to mention other countries. Australia, for instance.

Or he may have died in England before 1861, but just not in the Sheringham area.

Mallon it can’t be this one as he is on 1851 census at home in Norfolk working as an agricultural labourer. I do believe he emigrated, it would fit right in with there being no record anywhere of him post 1851 in the U.K.

I have since found a couple of marriages which fit in with other details, death etc, so fingers crossed this is him. Thanks to you.

VERY VERY appreciative. I think, and hope, I am on the right track here. Which is great cos I went right off track lol
Stay safe
Caroline

James Johnson
United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records, 1835-1941

Name: James Johnson
Event Type:
Military Service
Event Year Range:
1845-1854
Event Place:
United Kingdom
Birthplace:
Norfolk
Birth Year:
1832

Now found a death which matches other details, in Michigan. USA. The missing bit is a marriage between 1853 and 1909 bearing he was born in 1832, looks likely he died aged 77 in 1909 and is listed as a widower....so there must have been a marriage...not sure about children though...

Oooh now that is VERY interesting, never occurred to me he may have gone to USA. I shall go and investigate this.

Much appreciated, thanks

James Johnson
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1891
Name:
James Johnson
•
Event Type:
Immigration
Event Date:
1853
•
Event Place:
New York City, New York, United States
•
Sex:
Male
Age:
21
Nationality:
England
Birth Year (Estimated):
1832
Birthplace:
England
•
Ship Name:
Hendrick Hudson

Yes he is, oh poop lol.

I think there was a break in the time continuum like in Star Trek, and he literally fell off the world in 1855 after the census!

Thank you again

I looked at that Dreadnought record this morning, but then discounted it because it says that man had been in the Merchant Service for 11 years.

Your James is still at home with his parents in 1851.

James Johnson
England, Norfolk, Parish Registers (County Record Office), 1510-1997

Name:
James Johnson
•
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
05 Feb 1832
•
Event Place:
Beeston Regis, Norfolk, England
•
Sex:
Male
Birth Date:
24 Jan 1832
Father's Name:
Thomas Johnson
•
Mother's Name:
Ann Sayonby Johnson
•
Record Number:
1041
Record Number:
1041