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think I may have to order that death cert and see what details are on it, ie next of kin or informant etc. The download wont show that will it?

ooh AG our posts crossed. No, didnt see that ty

I have looked up Sophia's first husbands death and this is what i found.

B. Charles Edward Skinner 1869 d 1926 Medway Age 57
V 2A
P 825

But when I click on the burial details on FMP its says this
Edward Charles Skiinner
b. 1869 d.1926

Buried 20 May 1926.
Died at Medway Union( workhouse?)

Removed from St Marys( 7 Fairview Row)

Buried in Chatham & Maidstone Palmerston Cemetery.

This is where Sophia is buried!

So she was a widow from 1926 until she married again in 1951.

I wonder if its possible to view the headstone?

In that case, going by the day and month, Sophia's DOB stated in 1939 is correct, although not the year!

She was said to be 85 when she died - which wasn't correct either.

Alfred/Patrick's DOB may also be incorrect in 1939.

Have you investigated this death?

Deaths Sep 1954 (>99%)
Haggarty Patrick 84 Sittingbourne 5b 584

It says on the marr cert, she is a widow.

Sophia's mother told so many lies and she had Sophia in london ( unmarried) on 25 Oct 1877. She then returned to her hometown of Ramsgate and registered Sophia again saying she was born on 25 Dec 1877!!

I know her husband died before her and he was older than her but cant say if they divorced. Tbh, I think he died and maybe she considered herself single but she was actually a widow.

On her death cert it says" widow of...." and its left blank???

The only Haggarty/Skinner (or other spelling) I can see is the one in 1951.

Unfortunately I can't make out the date of the correction to the 1939 Register.

As Sophia's YOB is so wrong, perhaps her supposed marital status is too.
Maybe she considered herself single, if no longer living with her first husband.
Did they separate?
What does the marriage cert say about her marital status?

The woman on 1939 says she is SINGLE

Ah ty ErikaH for that. Although it says Sophia was born in 1869, I do have her birth cert and she was born in Dec 1877 but that doesn't matter as irrelevant really.

Ah so they made him Patrick Skinner oh and not used the Alfred! No wonder we couldn't find out much.

Well my aunty always said there was a connection to Ireland but I never found it. And although, no children came from the marriage, maybe this is the Irish connection.

Ty for your help, appreciated as always

Sophia’s death was registered as HaggErty, so don’t get hung up on spelling, as it obviously varies depending on who gives the info

Patrick Haggarty(Skinner) born 2 Apr 1874 is at that address in 1939 with SOPHIA Skinner born 25 Oct 1869

Patrick was originally listed as SKINNER……..changed later to Haggarty. Not connected to the marriage

Well at last, the marriage cert has arrived.

So the full name of this Haggarty is as follows.

Alfred James Patrick Haggarty. age 77 so born 1874.
Occupation: Retired Seaman
Add at marriage: 4 Mill Street, Milton Regis, Sittingbourne, Kent

Father: John Haggarty dec'd. Seaman

Actual date of marriage: 21 August 1951. Registry Office. Sittingbourne. Kent

So this is who my grt grandmother Sophia Eve Skinner married and rules out the Alfred Haggerty born in Gibraltar.

I have had another look on the census but cant find him. I did wonder if he was born elsewhere but still wonder why, I cant find his death??

Oh and it says bachelor so that indicates, he was not married before. He was probably at sea all his life. My aunty said his nickname was "The Captain."

The spelling too is def Haggarty not Haggerty.

At least this new info has eliminated the first one.

Florence in the hebrides

In court again in 1906:

1906, Maidstone, breaking and entering. Along with William Green , he stole 1 tin of lamb and tomato sauce, 11 tins of salmon, 7 tins of cocoa and condensed milk, and other goods. (This is definitely the same man, as his previous conviction is mentioned.)

1887 - 1894, in and out of Greenwich Workhouse numerous times - labourer, homeless, born 1871-2.

Sorry misread that ErikaH. But it will at least name his father and the witnesses on the marr cert so that can either identify him or eliminate someone.

Sophia died in hospital in Milton Regis, thats on the death cert

All I can say for definite is that on Sophia's death cert it says she's a widow in 1956.

So "her " Alfred, whoever that may be died between their marriage in 1951 in Sittingbourne and her death in 1956.

No you are correct AG, no other records apart from the marriage use the P but no birth records because maybe he was born abroad.

Yes I saw the one as a single man, a butcher and wondered if that was the correct one. its a bit of a puzzle and until I get the cert don't think any of us can solve it.

You have all tried and so have I but to no avail.

I even tried to look using the name Fred as people shorten their names, but no luck there either.

I shall come straight back as soon as I have the cert and tell you all the details but ty all again for assisting me.

Birthplaces were not added to death certs until 1969, and even then, were only ‘as known’ to the person registering the death

No you're not being picky. Sophia married an Alfred J P Haggerty but there cant be many of the same name living in kent around the same time? maybe when he first arrived he didnt use all his initials?

Will just have to wait until i get the certificate, nothing more we can do now.

ErikaH that Alfred Haggerty, I wonder where he was living in 1903? running a brothel? oh my heaven forbid but Sophia was a bit of" a character" so nothing would surprise me. She had 2 children and fathers name left blank on birth cert!!!

My last cert took over a week to come so have to be patient.

1881 census doesn't record any middle initials for Alfred.
In 1885 he enlists with the Royal Engineers - no middle initials.
I don't see him in 1891 - unless he's the one in Deptford - said to be a butcher born in Deptford - though there's no such birth on FreeBMD..
I don't see him in 1901.

In 1911 he has no middle initials.
In 1914 he's Alfred J at marriage.

There doesn't seem to be any proof that he had another middle initial P.

The address at which Alfred and Ann were living in 1921 was unoccupied in 1939

When they married in 1914, he didn’t give a third forename