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How does any of that answer Frances’s question?

1939 Register
Groesffordd Saron,Llandyssul, Carmarthen, Newcastle Emlyn R.D., Carmarthenshire, Wales
Frances Davies 04 Jan 1874 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed 65 1
Annie Davies 29 Aug 1907 Female Woen Factory Warfer Hand Single 65 2
Gwilym E Davies 03 Jul 1913 Male Omnibus Conductor Single 65 3

DAVIES, DANIEL OWEN OWENS
GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-IN-EMLYN Volume 11B Page 15
DAVIES, JAMES OWENS
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 19
DAVIES, THOMAS OWENS
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-IN-EMLYN Volume 11B Page 19


Cannot see a birth registration for Gwilym.....his age on the image is 7 years 11 months

Daniel was a Police Constable in 1939

1921 Census Of England & Wales
Groesffordd, Saron, Llangeler, Cardiganshire & Carmarthenshire, Wales
Thomas Davies Head Male 1869 51 Carmarthenshire, Wales Woollen Weaver John Jones Dow Mills Llandpaul, Woollen Manufacturer
Frances Davies Wife Female 1874 47 Carmarthenshire, Wales Housekeeper Thomas Davies
David Davies Son Male 1898 22 Carmarthenshire, Wales Colliery Labourer Cross Hands Colliery Co, Cross Heads, Llanelly
Tom Davies Son Male 1903 18 Carmarthenshire, Wales Colliery Labourer Caerbryn Colliery Co, Llandebic Swales
James Davies Son Male 1905 16 Carmarthenshire, Wales - -
Annie Davies Daughter Female 1907 13 Carmarthenshire, Wales - -
Daniel Owen Davies Son Male 1910 11 Carmarthenshire, Wales - -
Gwilym Edward Davies Son Male 1916 4 Carmarthenshire, Wales -

For interest. Aberystwyth was the first Welsh University.College, opened in 1872 with just 26 students.

Surely the whole point of this thread was could Frances believe the family story and would dna solve it. Knowing occupations of the siblings just add to the story of her family rather than prove one thing or another.

I don't think, Frances, that you can read too much into the occupations of your grandfather and his siblings. People do - and always have - pull themselves up from humble beginnings. There would be no progress, otherwise.

One of my paternal great-grandfathers was an Ag Lab - he had two sons One became a School Headmaster, and the other a Railway Stationmaster.

On my maternal side, all of my grandfather's antecedents and siblings were Weavers. He formed his own company.

If all the jigsaw pieces fit together you get the complete picture.

Other descendants only have part of the same dna as there would be other partners down the line. For instant, the match amounts ( added: by that I mean the different amounts of the match) of first cousins can be quite large yet the degree of separation from you is exactly the same.

If Frances can get matches that take her back far enough she has a reasonable chance of finding the right man,

The best way of understanding all this is to take the test yourself and see if the paper evidence matches the dna evidence. Papers lie, dna doesn’t.

At the moment, there is NO way to identify the unknown father.

Anyone descended from Frances would have the same basic line of DNA as yourself, which wouldn’t be of any help., as far as I can see - using logic as opposed to any knowledge of - or interest in - DNA

Ann(e)'s marriage:

John Protheroe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name John Protheroe
Registration Year 1891 [1891]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Newcastle in Emlyn
Inferred County Cardiganshire
Volume 11b
Page 26
Records on Page (Name)
Ann Owen
John Protheroe

It would seem odd if Thomas Stephens was named without reason.
I think that either he was her father - or that she had been told that he was, which of course proves nothing!

I don't see any reason why her father had to have been named David.

Her mother Margaret was calling herself Owens in 1871, and widowed, but as there is no sign of a marriage, she may just have taken the name of a short-term partner, for the sake of respectability.

Having said I was going to "put this to bed" it has been interesting. From what we've discussed I am drawn to someone named "David Owens " as being FRANCES's father.
Would anyone else like to weigh in with who they are persuaded ( or even partially persuaded) he may be?
The choices are
David Owens
Someone else called Owens
Thomas Stephens
None of these
No prizes as we don't know the right answer.
Frances

I was also going to say just go for it - you never know. But it is a shame you don’t know of anyone else.
To load your results on to other sites then Ancestry ( again) is the one to take as you can’t load onto Ancestry but most other sites will allow you to upload from Ancestry.

I think I'd be tempted to have a DNA test and load it on to as many (free?) sites as I could find. After all, what have you to lose, apart from the cost of the test, and it might produce some results. A lot of family history research is as much about negative results as positive ones.

I have no knowledge of anyone older than myself descended from FRANCES.
I don't and didn't have anyone in mind when I mentioned DNA. I had just thought loosely that if I took a DNA test then if someone who was descended from FRANCES's ancestor had also done so, then we could find out more. I accept this is hedged about by if's and but's.
What we do have though is this.
FRANCES's mother Margaret was born to Frances James.
Frances James married John Jones.
Up to this point it was understandable why Margaret may have called herself James or Jones.
The census of 18?? has Margaret describing herself as Owens a widow ( sorry I can't scroll back without losing what I am typing)
If Margaret had married , was her husband an Owens? or did she adopt this name for a reason we'll never know?
From now on both Ann and FRANCES were known as Owens.- hence the marriage certificate of 4/6/1895 giving this as FRANCES's name
but also saying that Thomas Stephens was her father.
This could mean that Thomas Stephens WAS her father or for whatever reason he declared that he was. Again we'll never know the answer to this.
I think we have taken this as far as we can go.
It was an intersting journey and I'd like to thank you all very much indeed.
Frances ( Mark 3!)

??

JAMES, ANNE -
GRO Reference: 1867 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 15

As Anne was 3 years old in 1871, and 23 in 1891,the 1869 birth is unlikely to be hers.

It would seem more logical that the birth was that of a child of the marriage posted by AG

This isn’t like the traditional method of creating family trees. There is no ‘documentary proof’.Basically you have a long list of definite relations. You have to sort out where they all fit - like a jigsaw.

Sometimes it works best to fit all the outside pieces together before you get into the centre.

As the woman named the Stephens chap when she married, it would seem to be a logical first step to try to eliminate him………or not.

Not sure how easy it would be for the OP to find any descendants interested in helping

Frances - if you are going to take a dna test then I think Ancestry might.be the better choice. It starts you off by splitting results into parent 1 or 2, which is why I suggested getting someone from an older generation to test as well, if you can.
Ancestry offer is about to finish so waiting for another sale might be a good idea - they pop up from time to time, especially lwhere there are special events.

Read up on how cms work - that will help too.