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What's the address on the 1851 for this family? How close is it to Old St Pancras Church (NW1 1UL)?

Looks right, well done :o) Mary has become Mary Ann, she's gained 5 years in age (no surprises there) Jane has gone from 6 to 13, I'll have to look at the image to see if that's a mis-transcription. So, John Piper the baker wasn't the father of the Mary Ann Piper who married my gg-grandfather. That John Piper was dead in 1849 when Mary Ann and Samuel married. What does it say under birthplace for the children? Can you get the image to me? Regents Park isn't too far from Edmonton where my Mary Ann said she was born. EVEN BETTER - they were married in Old St Pancras Church, which is a stone's throw from Regent's Park, in Camden Town.

Hi Alan, Here they are in 1851 John Piper is a baker. Betsy....Elizabeth?? 1851 England Census about John Piper Name: John Piper Age: 46 Estimated birth year: abt 1805 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Mary Ann Gender: Male Where born: Devon, England Civil parish: St Pancras Town: Camden Town County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Pancras Sub-registration district: Regents Park ED, institution, or vessel: 20 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 250 Household Members: Name Age Betsy Piper 11 Emanuel Piper 2 James Piper 6 Jane Piper 13 John Piper 46 Loissa Piper 4 Mary Ann Piper 38 Sarah Piper 8 Regards Vera

Births Dec 1840 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Piper Elizabeth St Pancras 1 281 This would prove that John and Mary were married, but is unlikely to help prove that Mary Ann is 'my' Mary Ann. It might show that it was his second marriage of course, which would make it more likely that he was Mary Ann's father. ..................................... Witnesses to the marriage were Henry and Rebecca York, Samuel York's relations. Throwing a family tree together is fairly easy, 'proving' it is another thing entirely :o)

When Mary Ann married in 1849, who were the witnesses? They might help you to locate the correct PIPER family. Gwyn

Thanks Vera I'm not so sure that John Piper the baker is Mary Ann Piper's father. He'd only have been 17+ when Mary Ann was born. My guess is that John Piper the Baker is Mary Ann's brother and that Elisabeth is John Piper the baker's daughter with his wife Mary. I'm guessing that all the other Pipers in 1841 are John and Mary Ann's bothers and sisters and that their parents are both dead. What I'll need to look for in 1851 is John and Mary still together. hopefully he'll still be a baker! If John IS Mary Ann's father, then Mary is very unlikely to be Mary Ann's mother. I might have a look to see if I can find Elisabeth Piper's birth cert...

Hi Alan, By 1851 Mary Anns father the baker is dead. I wonder if Mary his wife remarried. ( Was the 20 year old Mary is wife or sister) On the 1841 census Both Mary and John were not born in the county.....all the others including Mary Ann were born in the county. Regards Vera

Hi Alan, 1851 Elizabeth Piper Age: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1839 Relation: Pupil Gender: Female Where born: Brentford, Middlesex, England Civil parish: St Marylebone Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Marylebone Sub-registration district: St John ED, institution, or vessel: 22 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 157 Household Members: Name Age Charlotte Jones 40 Mary Ann Leach 18 Emma Pickering 53 James Pickering 25 >>>>>>>Elizabeth Piper 12 Emily Rogers 13 Frances Rogers 11 Sarah Rogers 14 Mary Ann Shawyor 26 Lucy Watson 7 Mary Ann Watson 9 Sarah White 11 Regards Vera

Hi Alan, 1851 1851 England Census about John Piper Name: John Piper Age: 11 Estimated birth year: abt 1840 Relation: Inmate Gender: Male Where born: London, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Plymouth St Andrew Town: Plymouth County/Island: Devon Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Plymouth Sub-registration district: St Andrew ED, institution, or vessel: Hospital of Poors Portion or Workhouse Plymouth Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 1 Household Members: Name Age Regards Vera

Thanks for all your help on this. The next step is to go fowards into 1851+ and try to find this family again. John the baker and Mary may be married, Elisabeth may be their child, but I'm guessing the rest are John's brothers and sisters. That would also possibly explain the Mary and Mary Ann in the same family. I'll have to subscribe to Ancestry again to track this all down. A job for those dark winter nights - still - I'm off and running again, and that's brilliant. Thanks to all. Alan

Can anyone get hold of the image for this? Thanks

That Marriage is right, That's Mary Ann marrying Samual York. There is much confusion around this, partly because a lot of peeps have copied some spurious records from another site. I believe I am probably descended from Samuel York's first wife (Mary Smith - possibly married before 1837) not his second wife (Mary Ann Piper) but the dates are very close and all details are vital. This is a huge step forward 8o)

Brilliant - could be her. Now I need to dig around to see if I can find something to confirm it. Baker - not had a baker before. Tripe Factory owners yes, but no bakers. Ooooooooooo I'm all excited now - Just got to try to verify it..... Wonderful. 8o) Alan

Hi Alan, Marriages Sep 1848 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnold William Parsons S Pancras 1 328 BARNETT Harriet St Pancras 1 328 Button Rose Ann S. Pancras 1 328 >>>>>>>>>>>>Piper Mary Ann S. Pancras 1 328 SEWELL Joseph St. Pancras 1 328 Warren Mary Ann St Pancras 1 328 West George William St Pancras 1 328 YORK Samuel S Pancras 1 328 Regards Vera

Hi Alan, This Mary Ann Pipers fathers occupation was Baker. Regards Vera

Hi Alan, Any good.. 1841 Name: Mary Ann Piper Age: 13 Estimated birth year: abt 1828 Gender: Female Where born: Middlesex, England Civil parish: St Pancras Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division) County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: View image Registration district: St Pancras Sub-registration district: Regents Park Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age John Ashbolt 65 Ann Evans 35 Mary Ann Evans 15 William Evans 35 James Jones 60 Elizabeth Piper 7 Mo Jane Piper 6 John Piper 30 John Piper 10 Mary Piper 20 Mary Ann Piper 13 John Ryan 35 William Wellon 10 Joshua White 55 Regards Vera

possible 1841 England Census about Mary Piper Name: Mary Piper Age: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1821 Gender: Female Civil parish: St Pancras Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division) County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: View image Registration district: St Pancras Sub-registration district: Regents Park Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age John Ashbolt 65 Ann Evans 35 Mary Ann Evans 15 William Evans 35 James Jones 60 Elizabeth Piper 7 Mo Jane Piper 6 John Piper 30 John Piper 10 Mary Piper 20 Mary Ann Piper 13 John Ryan 35 William Wellon 10 Joshua White 55 Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 684; Book: 9; Civil Parish: St Pancras; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 12; Page: 19; Line: 8; GSU roll: 438800.

I'm looking for Mary Ann Piper (about 17 in 1841) and her father John Piper who died pre 1849. My gg-grandmother and ggg-grandfather. That's all I know about them His occupation on her marriage certificate (1849) was 'dead'. Mary Ann put her birthplace as Totham,Middx in 1861. Which I took to mean Tottenham. Then, when I found her in 1851 she had put Edmonton which is close to Tottenham. I just can't find them in 1841. Last time I looked at my tree seriously was over a year ago. Has much indexing been done on the 1841 since then? Is the 1841 on Ancestry complete? I might resubscribe and have another go. This is the only place where I haven't got past my ggg- Thanks