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Here's an Annie Sayers from Dover who would fit the 1885 marriage. 1881: Annie Sayers George, Anne abt 1866 Dover, Kent, England Daughter Dover St Mary Virgin Kent

Hi Ozbird and Scarlet, Sorry to be so long but I have been out all day,you have totally confused me once again, just as I thought I might be sorting it out. Ozbird are you saying that Valentine and Pay married and are out of the equation which means a definite Sayer & Bailey marriage. Now with 1881 Annie Sayer Dover, where does George come into it, I am not quite with you on that one. First of all let me say thank you both for all you have done, it is certainly a mystery isn't it. First time of reading I was more confused but when I got around to reading it properly I was amazed at how well the two of you interacted and set it out for me. What it boils down to is this, do you agree? FACT Richard Sayer m Mary Ann Banks/Goldsmith and had two children Lizzie & Emmer on the 1881 Census. FACT Annie had two more children Edith & Richard (note same name as father!!!! in 1884/85 also she remarried Josiah Bailey Sep Qtr 1885. I am going to concentrate on Richard as he was born anytime up to six months before mother remarried. So I see it as two options. Remember that Annie remarried. 1. Richard could be the father even if he died after Richard Jr was conceived, otherwise why christen him a Sayer. 2. Josiah could be the father if he and Annie were having an affair, she didn't want hubby to know and obviously he would want to call his first son Richard,but for that to be the case he would have died in the period straight after his birth. I am leaning towards Richard being the parent but to be sure I am going to go through the quarters of the deaths to se what I can find, it will only be for about nine months which will be 3 quarters. Does this sound feasible. I could leave it but after all the hard work you two have put in it makes me want to find out for sure. Thanks, hope to hear from you for your response. Julia

In 1881 George & Anne Sayers are the parents of Annie Sayers who could be your 1885 marriage. Ozi.

Everything is as you say except for the 1885 marriage. We don't know for sure on that one. Here's husband Richard in 1871. Name: Richard Sayers Age: 16 Estimated birth year: abt 1855 Relation: Son Father's name: Richard Mother's name: Ann Gender: Male Where born: Canterbury, Kent, England Civil parish: Buckland Town: Dover County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: Erith St Occupation: carpenter Registration district: Dover Sub-registration district: Hougham Household Members: Name Age Richard Sayers 39 - labourer Ann Sayers 36 Richard Sayers 16 - Sarah Sayers 14 George Sayers 12 Frederick Sayers 6 John Sayers 4 Ann Sayers 2 John Hobbs 45 - lodger John Hobbs 14 - lodger All Sayers born Canterbury except for the youngest 2, born Dover.

Have been checking on Death and no luck. Have found Richard Sayers family on family search and checked for neighbours and who do you think I found but the Baileys. Josiah Baileys brother William lived in Herbert Street a five or six houses away. Richard and Ann lived in 1 George Street. This is getting so hard, I don't know what to think, maybe I should leave it alone, what do you think? Julia

& here's something else for you. 1901, 4 households from Josiah who is in Cottage no.3. Name: Richard Sayer Age: 16 Estimated birth year: abt 1885 Relation: Son Mother's name: Annie Gender: Male Where born: Dover, Kent, England Civil parish: Dover Ecclesiastical parish: Buckland St Andrews Town: Dover County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: 7 Kings Cottages, Primrose Rd. Occupation: labourer at paper mill Registration district: Dover Sub-registration district: St Mary Household Members: Name Age Annie Bailey 47 - charwoman, b. Staplehurst, Kent Richard Sayer 16 Percy Tracer 20 - boarder

The Richard Sayer, Scarlett found living with daughter Annie Pain in 1901, must be the father of Richard Sayer, husband of Annie/Mary A Goldsmith. Grandfather Richard, b. Goodnestone c1834 (son of George & Ann), ag lab Father Richard, b. Patricksbourne c1855 (son of Richard & Ann), carpenter Son Richard, b. Dover c1885 (son of ?? & Ann Goldsmith), labourer

Cottage no 4. Lydia Bayley abt 1851 Dover, Kent, England Head Dover Kent - rag sorter at the paper mill

I think we have finally got it. Richard in 1901 was living at 7 Kings Cottages, Primrose Road with mother Annie. Josiah in 1901 was living at 3 Kings Cottages, Primrose Road with Elizabeth Goldsmith and family. So I think it is for sure that they are all related. I do think the marriage was the correct one in 1885 especially because of the name Ann on 1891 Census with all the children. I agree with you on older Richard living with Annie Pain it must have been his grandaughter not daughter as there is about 60 years different. It all seems to tie up doesn't it, I think we can lay it to rest now don't you, I don't think we will ever know what happened to Richard Junior. Thanks so much for all of your help, I didn't expect it to be so difficult but it is so much easier if you can talk to somebody else and they usually put things in perspective. Julia

1861: Name: Mary A Goldsmith Age: 8 Estimated birth year: abt 1853 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Elizabeth Gender: Female Where born: Staplehurst, Kent, England Civil parish: Staplehurst County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: Couchman Green Rd Occupation: scholar Registration district: Maidstone Sub-registration district: Marden Household Members: Name Age Thomas Goldsmith 39 - ag lab, b. Headcorn Elizabeth Goldsmith 32 - b. Sutton Valance Thomas Goldsmith 20 Elizabeth Goldsmith 16 Edwin Goldsmith 13 Jeremiah Goldsmith 11 Mary A Goldsmith 8 George Histed 23 - boarder 1871: Name: Mary A Goldsmith Age: 18 Estimated birth year: abt 1853 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Elizabeth Gender: Female Where born: Headcorn, Kent, England Civil parish: Staplehurst Ecclesiastical parish: Canterbury County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: Occupation: Registration district: Maidstone Sub-registration district: Marden Household Members: Name Age Thomas Goldsmith 60 - ag lab, b. Headcorn Elizabeth Goldsmith 53 - b. Sutton Valance Mary A Goldsmith 18 Ellen M Goldsmith 7 - grandaughter John Corke 44 - boarder

Hi Ozibird, the Mary A Goldsmith you have given me is that the one that married Richard in 1876 that you are refering to. The Richard I mentioned was Annies husband, which would be the one above, the one we can't seem to find any trace of after 1881 Census. As I said it seems to be as if Annie married Josiah as we thought as it all works out together the only thing that we couldn't find was the death of Richard, somehow along the line they must have separated. I have written it all down from 1871 to 1901 for both families and it seems to work out. I was going to ask you to look up 1891 Richard Sayer B1839 as you have his death down as 1902 and that is the only Census that I am missing. I am trying to put it all together and the names and addresses all seem to gel. What do you think Julia