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So Coutts DIDN'T sign then?

He was listed as father not witness

....and no-one knows if the bride and groom were asked if their fathers were deceaced.My guess is that he was. the other line of attack? have you found his wifes death? usually a husband would register wifes death and vice vera if they were still alive, that could prove another pinpoint

I searched the general records office for any Piccini deaths from January 1862 to 1925 inclusive. The only results were Amy Piccini (first wife) aged 19 and Coutt's mother Lucy. Plus a baby Anna Piccini aged 2 St Giles 1869 and his aunt Elizabeth Ann Piccini age 75 Lambeth 1871. Elizabeth was born 1838 and wasn't on there and Coutts isn't on there either. The only move I can think of next is to check deaths of Coutts Miles 1871 - 1892 (prior to weddings). I have already checked it for January 1893 (after weddings) to 1925. I think it's weird though that all three sets of brides and grooms were not asked if Coutts was deceased or not.

Who was the informant of Lucy's death? If it was Coutts that may narrow the search. Have you looked for Wills of any of these people?

Because I don't know when Elizabeth or Coutts died I can't order their wills. I do have wills from National Archives of Coutts' grandfather, Anthony Thomas Piccini, Coutts' great grandfather Anthony Piccini and his aunt Harriet Piccini. As I know when Lucy Piccini (Coutts' mother) died, I will order hers from Probate. The only thing is that she was living with her married daughter then and I think it unlikely she would have bothered leaving a will, but I'll try anyway for the sake of £5.

Have you seen the death entry that Gwyneth mentioned? The John Coutts Myles. Have you got that certificate? Did the children all marry in the same church? If they did, then the vicar (etc) might just not ask in general whether or not the father was deceased. Just because the name is written down on the cert does not mean that Coutts himself signed it, it's information given by the bride and groom. Does the family story say who changed their surname and why? Chloe

sorry this is getting so strung out, but im trying to think of ways to help you. Coutts mother dies, do you have the cert?who registered her death? ------------------------------------- ancestry sem sto be kicking up slightly different birth places for some **View Record Piccini, Charles 1865 December Births Newington London Surrey < is that your Charles? View Record Piccini, Henrietta Bertha 1847 September Births Newington London Surrey View Record Piccini, Henry 1870 December Births Chorlton Lancashire View Record PICCINI, Jemina 1845 June Births Newington London Surrey View Record PICCINI, Martha Mary 1843 December Births City of London London Middlesex View Record PICCINI, Susanna 1845 June Births Newington London Surrey -------------------------------------------- also these records View Record Myles, John Coutts 1882 December Marriages St Giles London Middlesex View Record Myles, John Coutts 1894 December Deaths Burnley Lancashire West Riding of Yorkshire <<** View Record Mills, John Coutts 1853 March Births Rotherhithe London Surrey View Record Mills, John Coutts 1902 June Deaths St Olave Bermondsey London <<**

Ref John Coutts Myles - ordered the marriage certificate last night in hope it might give a father or witness. Yes, all three married at St Michaels Church, same vicar. It has always been a mystery why Coutts changed his name, some people think he may have been escaping his identidy after Amy died so suddenly - a year after marriage of a heart attack at 19 in 1862 in Camberwell? He only appears as Coutts Piccini again all the way away in Manchester. After that certainly the children are back in London as Miles. Almost as though the only way they can come back is with a name change. May be he was a bigamist. I don't know, your mind can work overtime trying to work it out. It has been a mystery for the last 30 years. One I want desperately to solve. With response to the list of names:- Charles is Coutts son. This is before Coutts moves upto Manchester. His mother is listed as Elizabeth Piccini (formerly Read). But there's no record of their marriage from as far back as 1857 to Dec 1873. Henrietta Bertha was Coutts' sister died 1850 aged 3 Henry was Coutts' son born when they lived in Manchester as Piccini. Jemima, Martha Mary & Susannah - not sure but possibly Coutts' sisters.