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Ref John Coutts Myles - ordered the marriage certificate last night in hope it might give a father or witness. Yes, all three married at St Michaels Church, same vicar. It has always been a mystery why Coutts changed his name, some people think he may have been escaping his identidy after Amy died so suddenly - a year after marriage of a heart attack at 19 in 1862 in Camberwell? He only appears as Coutts Piccini again all the way away in Manchester. After that certainly the children are back in London as Miles. Almost as though the only way they can come back is with a name change. May be he was a bigamist. I don't know, your mind can work overtime trying to work it out. It has been a mystery for the last 30 years. One I want desperately to solve. With response to the list of names:- Charles is Coutts son. This is before Coutts moves upto Manchester. His mother is listed as Elizabeth Piccini (formerly Read). But there's no record of their marriage from as far back as 1857 to Dec 1873. Henrietta Bertha was Coutts' sister died 1850 aged 3 Henry was Coutts' son born when they lived in Manchester as Piccini. Jemima, Martha Mary & Susannah - not sure but possibly Coutts' sisters.

sorry this is getting so strung out, but im trying to think of ways to help you. Coutts mother dies, do you have the cert?who registered her death? ------------------------------------- ancestry sem sto be kicking up slightly different birth places for some **View Record Piccini, Charles 1865 December Births Newington London Surrey < is that your Charles? View Record Piccini, Henrietta Bertha 1847 September Births Newington London Surrey View Record Piccini, Henry 1870 December Births Chorlton Lancashire View Record PICCINI, Jemina 1845 June Births Newington London Surrey View Record PICCINI, Martha Mary 1843 December Births City of London London Middlesex View Record PICCINI, Susanna 1845 June Births Newington London Surrey -------------------------------------------- also these records View Record Myles, John Coutts 1882 December Marriages St Giles London Middlesex View Record Myles, John Coutts 1894 December Deaths Burnley Lancashire West Riding of Yorkshire <<** View Record Mills, John Coutts 1853 March Births Rotherhithe London Surrey View Record Mills, John Coutts 1902 June Deaths St Olave Bermondsey London <<**

Have you seen the death entry that Gwyneth mentioned? The John Coutts Myles. Have you got that certificate? Did the children all marry in the same church? If they did, then the vicar (etc) might just not ask in general whether or not the father was deceased. Just because the name is written down on the cert does not mean that Coutts himself signed it, it's information given by the bride and groom. Does the family story say who changed their surname and why? Chloe

Because I don't know when Elizabeth or Coutts died I can't order their wills. I do have wills from National Archives of Coutts' grandfather, Anthony Thomas Piccini, Coutts' great grandfather Anthony Piccini and his aunt Harriet Piccini. As I know when Lucy Piccini (Coutts' mother) died, I will order hers from Probate. The only thing is that she was living with her married daughter then and I think it unlikely she would have bothered leaving a will, but I'll try anyway for the sake of £5.

Who was the informant of Lucy's death? If it was Coutts that may narrow the search. Have you looked for Wills of any of these people?

I searched the general records office for any Piccini deaths from January 1862 to 1925 inclusive. The only results were Amy Piccini (first wife) aged 19 and Coutt's mother Lucy. Plus a baby Anna Piccini aged 2 St Giles 1869 and his aunt Elizabeth Ann Piccini age 75 Lambeth 1871. Elizabeth was born 1838 and wasn't on there and Coutts isn't on there either. The only move I can think of next is to check deaths of Coutts Miles 1871 - 1892 (prior to weddings). I have already checked it for January 1893 (after weddings) to 1925. I think it's weird though that all three sets of brides and grooms were not asked if Coutts was deceased or not.

....and no-one knows if the bride and groom were asked if their fathers were deceaced.My guess is that he was. the other line of attack? have you found his wifes death? usually a husband would register wifes death and vice vera if they were still alive, that could prove another pinpoint

He was listed as father not witness

So Coutts DIDN'T sign then?

The witnesses for Ada's marriage to Frederick Lay were James Webb & Louisa Miles (Ada's sister) The witnesses for Henry's marriage to Rebecca Rumble were John Henry Herbert & Louisa Herbert (same sister, but married now) Can't transcribe Louisa's witnesses.

Who were the witnesses at Coutts' children's marriages?

Also, I have trawled through the register office deaths under the name of Coutts Piccini from as far back as 1870 (before I get him on the last census, 1871) right through to 1925. He is not there.

Coutt's childrens marriages:- Ada Miles married Frederick James Lay in Wood Green, Middlesex, January 5th 1890 Louisa Miles married Mr Herbert Wood Green, Middlesex 5th June 1892 Henry Miles married Rebecca Rumble Wood Green, Dec 25th 1892 He signed for all three as dad in name of Coutt's Miles, decorator/house painter I am hoping he is in the same area. ALSO, John Coutts Myles that someone further up mentioned was born in the same area they lived in at one point (St Giles registration district), which was where Ada was born.

so in 1891 I would assume (maybe wrongly) that he was in the vicinity of where ever henry got married. where did he get married please

The last marriage Coutts Miles signed for as father was for Henry to Rebecca Rumble on Christmas Day 1892.

so where and when was the LATEST certificate of marriage that Coutts signed as father

Esta, The Henry Miles you have in all three census is correct. I applied to the hospital (1881) but they said he couldn't have stayed in overnight and consequently don't have any personal records for him. Thanks., Kim

To answer queries above:- 1. When Louisa (Coutt's daughter) married mr Herbert, she gave her father's name as Coutts Miles, professional housepainter/decorator. 2. Lucy Piccini was Coutt's mother. 3. Yes, Coutts Miles did sign as father to all 3 children's marriages. 4. I know that Coutts changed his name and his children's name from Piccini to Miles because it was known in the family before I started my research. Henry Miles (my greatx2 grandfather) went to claim his pension to be told he didn't exist. His older sister then told him he was born Henry Piccini, in Chorlton, Gorton, Lancs. He was then able to claim his birth certificate and his pension. His sister knew Coutts was Coutts Piccini. 5. Coutts Piccini's birth was never registered in 1837. Although the baptism for his older brother, Frederick Johnson is recorded. Hope this helps. Thanks to everyone.

Miles / Piccini I'm very confused ( it doesn't take much ! ) as to what the surname is suppose to be from 1881 onwards. I've had a look around - and the best I can do so far is a Possible for son HENRY MILES (!) 1881 Name: Henry Miles Age in 1881: 11 Age months: 0 Estimated birth year: abt 1870 Relationship to head-of-household: Patient Household: View other family members Family and neighbors: View neighbors Gender: Male Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England Address: Kings College Hospital Portugal St Civil parish: St Clement Danes County/Island: London Condition as to marriage: Unknown Occupation: Scholar 1891 Name: Miles, Henry Age: 21 Estimated birth year: abt 1870 Relation: Lodger Gender: Male Where Born: Manchester, Lancashire Birth Country: England Civil parish: Tottenham Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael County/Island: Middlesex 1901 Alice Miles abt 1893 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter Tottenham Middlesex Henry Miles abt 1870 Manchester, Lancashire, England Head Tottenham Middlesex Henry Miles abt 1894 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son Tottenham Middlesex Rebecca Miles abt 1873 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Wife Tottenham Middlesex Rebecca Miles abt 1899 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter Tottenham Middlesex William Miles abt 1895 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son Tottenham Middlesex

1871 in full for for ref View Record Ada Piccini abt 1869 Sussex, England Daughter Gorton Lancashire View Record Cath Piccini abt 1839 Sussex, England Head Gorton Lancashire View Record Chas Piccini abt 1866 Sussex, England Son Gorton Lancashire View Record Elith Piccini abt 1838 Sussex, England Wife Gorton Lancashire View Record Elizth Piccini abt 1863 Middlesex, England Daughter Gorton Lancashire View Record Henry Piccini abt 1870 Lancashire, England Son Gorton Lancashire View Record Louisa Piccini abt 1865 Sussex, England Daughter Gorton Lancashire 1881 - might delete in a minute tho! View Record Ada M. Miles abt 1868 Brighton, Sussex, England Daughter 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England View Record Eliza Miles abt 1835 Chichester, Sussex, England Wife 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England View Record Eliza S. Miles abt 1862 Brighton, Sussex, England Daughter 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England View Record George A. F. Miles abt 1870 Brighton, Sussex, England Son 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England View Record Louisa E. Miles abt 1866 Brighton, Sussex, England Daughter 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England View Record William Miles abt 1833 Epsom, Surrey, England Head 40 Church Rd, Hove, Sussex, England