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Need some expert advice please... If some-one didn't have thier birth registered (c1891) would they have had to 'prove' who they were to get the state pension?? if the birth is definately not registered how would the people who issue the pensions have known who the person was??...If the unregistered person did get thier pension would there be a record available as the person is deceased.... Hope that makes sense. Best wishes, Jennifer

I'm not expert but are you absolutly certain the birth wasn't registered or can you just not find it? give us some details and lets see what can be found

My grandfather was born in 1870. He did not have a birth certificate but when he applied for a pension in 1935 he needed proof of when he was born. The pension people tried to find a birth for him and at the time could not find one. My grandfather wrote to the church where he was baptised and did manage to get his baptism certificate (which for unknown reasons was in a different surname to the name he always used - but he must have known about this as he sent a letter to the church asking for Mr. 'A's' baptism record, even though he was in fact Mr. 'B' and got a reply back addressed in his proper name.) I also found the family in the 1871 census using the baptism name or some reason. The pension office then issued him with a birth certificate in the name that he was baptised with and then issued a pension. I don't know where they came up with this birth certificate from or even if it was an official certificate, because there is definitely no birth reference in that name in the indexes, but I have since found his 'proper' birth certificate registered in this rightful name. All very odd - but that's family history for you. Kath. x

Hi Scarlet... Am helping a chap in Aus.. the Birth should have been 1891 ish.. in the Wisbech, Cambridgeshire area. He was Martin Joseph McDonald (and variants) the Aus. chaps Grandfather....... I have his Marriage in 1915..... The Aus. chaps Mum has given details where they lived, siblings etc..... I have his family on the 1901 Census (he isn't on it!) from information from the Aus. chaps Mum...... The family were known to be devout Catholics but the Parish Register doesn't list a Baptism for Martin Joseph McDonald....... Thinking there might be some information to be gleaned from an earlier childs registration I searced for one of the other children.. again there is no Birth Registration (have searched 2 yrs either side) for that child either..... The Parish Register has a Baptism for a Martin Joseph McIntyre which has been scored through and Cahill put in the place.... There isn't a Birth Registration for either a McIntyre (and variants) or Cahill child on the Indexes either...... I think it was an adoption, probably arranged through the Church but as adoption wasn't recorded until the 1900's there isn't a record.... I just came up with the idea about his pension as perhaps being another way to find his birth identity.... Your' thoughts will be very appreciated... Jennifer

Hi Jennifer, The parish records are for the Anglican church so you would need to track down Catholic records. Janice

Janice.. it was the Catholic Church Records.. they won't let me view them myself and are charging £7.00 per hour, so far 2 hrs to look for 1 Baptism and 1 Marriage I didn't ask for!!...

Kathleen, at least you verified that he would have needed a birth certificate to get his pension.. thank you for that, I did think that's the way it would work but wasn't sure. Do you think the pension people might be able to throw some light on things?.. He died in 1966.. Jennifer

I'm not sure whether or not the pension service would give out details these days (because of Data Protection), but they might be able to give general advice on what would or wouldn't have been needed at that time. Kath. x

Are you sure of the birthplace? There is this birth reference:- Name: Martin Joseph McDonald Year of Registration: 1887 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Liverpool (1837-1924) County: Lancashire Volume: 8b Page: 83 If he was going to be adopted perhaps the mother went away from home for the birth. Or perhaps she came over from Ireland to give birth and have the baby adopted (which many Irish girls did). Kath. x

Kath.. I had already thought about the Irish girl in 'trouble' thing. But... The Aus. fella's Mum remembers her Grandparents (Martins 'parents') clearly and the address they lived at etc...In saying that it's highly unlikely she would have been told they maybe were'nt her 'natural' Grandparents so to this day would not have known...... I personally think he was born Martin Joseph Cahill to (probably) a young Irish family member and the McDonalds 'adopted' him but this poor chap in Aus. will not be able to continue going back on his line until he can find out the true birth parent/parents of his Grandad... The Birth Reg. you found isn't him, it looks like that one dies a couple of years after birth.... Have you got any idea who I could phone to speak to about his pension??.. Can't thank you enough for your help... Jennifer

If you have a look at this page it gives lots of contact numbers for different departments in the Department of Work and Pensions. I'm not sure which one you should contact, but maybe one of them can point you in the right direction:- http://www.dwp.gov.uk/contact/contact_atoz.asp#tps Kath. x

If you think he may have been born Cahill, do you think there is any chance that his 'adoptive' parents changed his first name? Just clutching at straws but there is a birth reference in 1891 (about the right time) for a Michael Joseph Cahill born in London (which is another place single pregnant girls might have gone to give birth):- Michael Joseph Cahill March qtr. 1891, Mile End, 1a 577 Kath. x

Eunice.... Thank you for responding, your 'hunch' is right he is the Martin Joseph I'm trying to track down parent/parents for.. The parents given on this document and the Father on his Marriage Cert. are the folks I think 'adopted' him.. Kath...... just getting something to eat and will be back later about your info.. I will call the Pension people tomorrow and see if there's any hope of help from them.... Thank you very much again.

Hi Kath... No the Michael Joseph you found is on the 1901 with his Mum and Dad.. Oh well, I'll call it quits for today and move on to something else.. Thank you very much again for your advice and help, much appreciated. Kind regards, Jennifer