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John
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10 Dec 2007 21:42 |
Hi Kathryn Thanks for all your help so far. Today I have received the marriage cert of Lydia May Russell and of Rosina Martha Russell. Also the Marriage of Alfred Joseph Russell. These are all correct as far as I know.
I also applied for the Birth cert of Lydia may Russell that had father Alfred was in the right county but wife Carla. I followed it on through the Censuses and it dosent tie up.
I am also following the line of Alfreds brothers and sisters but as yet still no Carroline !!!!
I think that the year 1897 for Caroline could be wrong. This year was calculated from her wedding cert and from hearsay she was 3 when her mother died. The father died shortly after. If her age was wrong on her wed cert by three years or more she may have missed the 1901 census.????
Please have you any other Suggestions Regards John
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John
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27 Nov 2007 15:37 |
Ok then off to a good start !!!! We have a birth 1890 We have Lydia in 1891 census age 2 We have Lydia in 1901 census age 15
(dates are a bit squiffy) ???
We have Lydia in marriages 1908 and her middle name (May)
We also have the marriage of her father or uncle 1886 to Lydia Gregory.
That all sounds promising to me.
Rose we have in 1891 census. Rose we have in 1901 census. Her birth looks good for 1890 Stepney
and she's named Rosina !!!!!
I am going to get the Birth Certs as soon as I can for both of these and marrige certs if they look ok.
My mother insists neither of these were the mother of Caroline.
Your theory the (Dumbletons) is so interesting as to the closeness of all entries. Im looking at it but keeping an open mind on it at the moment.
I will pass all findings on to be viewed by sis she has done quite a bit on the family but never got far with Caroline and family. Again Caroline and brothers still missing but this is coming together.
Thanks so much for your help.
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JaneyCanuck
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27 Nov 2007 04:11 |
This looks like Alfred John's marriage:
Name: Alfred John Dumbleton Year of Registration: 1910 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Southwark(1901 Onw) County: Greater London, London Volume: 1d Page: 21
It sure would be interesting to see whether he was an undertaker -- and maybe Caroline was actually his daughter, and the niece of Lydia and Rose ...
Aargh. Here they are in 1881 -- sans son Ernest:
Name: Alfred Dumbleton Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879 Relation: Son Father's Name: Edwin S. Mother's Name: Sarah J. Gender: Male Where born: Newington, Surrey, England Civil Parish: Bermondsey County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 166 Lynton Rd Registration district: St Olave Southwark Sub-registration district: St James Bermondsey ED, institution, or vessel: 26b
Alfred Dumbleton 2 Edwin S. Dumbleton 28 - warehouseman unemployed Sarah J. Dumbleton 28 - beader on leather
Name: Edwin Samuel Dumbleton + Sarah Jane Caunter Year of Registration: 1875 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: St Saviour Southwark County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 180
Not finding any connection between the families ... and it's supper time! But that's my theory. ;)
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JaneyCanuck
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27 Nov 2007 03:59 |
But here is an extremely interesting coincidence:
Name: Lydia May Dumbleton Year of Registration: 1887 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: St Saviour Southwark County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 23
Name: Rosina Maria Dumbleton Year of Registration: 1883 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: St Olave Southwark (1837-1901) County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 316
Lydia May and Rosina M, born in the right place at vaguely the right time. (Rosina being way out from the 1891 entry, but who knows?)
I don't see either of those names in the 1891 or 1901 census, or marrying 1900-1910 or dying anytime.
I see an interesting Dumbleton household in 1891:
Name: Alfred J Dumbleton Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879 Relation: Son Father's Name: Ernest S Gender: Male Where born: Walworth, London, England Civil Parish: Camberwell Ecclesiastical parish: St George Town: Peckham County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: Camberwell Sub-registration district: St George ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Alfred J Dumbleton 12 Ernest H Dumbleton 15 Ernest S Dumbleton 38 - polisher's assistant - widowed
He's Alfred John Dumbleton in the 1901 census, and was born:
Name: Alfred John Dumbleton Year of Registration: 1878 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: St Saviour Southwark County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 170
-- but I'm damned if I can find those people in the 1881. Or father Ernest in any other census, or being born or marrying or dying.
But this could be the death of his wife:
Name: Sarah Jane Dumbleton Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854 Year of Registration: 1891 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at Death: 37 District: St Saviour Southwark County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 21
Might the widowed Ernest Dumbleton have placed his young daughters with the Russells??
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JaneyCanuck
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27 Nov 2007 03:15 |
And this is Lydia's marriage:
Marriages Jun 1908 Bellamy Frederick Charles Greenwich 1d 1777 ** HUGHES William Henry Greenwich 1d 1777 Robinson Ada Mary Greenwich 1d 1777 ** Russell Lydia May Greenwich 1d 1777
So she's Lydia May ... and there's only one of them:
Name: Lydia May Russell Year of Registration: 1890 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: St Olave Southwark (1837-1901) County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 275
but that sure didn't make her 2 in 1891, let alone 15 in 1901 ...
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JaneyCanuck
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27 Nov 2007 02:55 |
Would this be Rose's marriage?
Marriages Dec 1913 Facey Clements W Marriner Camberwell 1d 1523 Marriner Annie L Facey Camberwell 1d 1523 ** Russell Rosina M Smith Camberwell 1d 1523 ** Smith Walter T Russell Camberwell 1d 1523
So she was Rosina.
This is the only one of them who could have been 3 mo old in the 1891:
Name: Rosina Russell Year of Registration: 1890 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Stepney (To 1921) County: London, Middlesex Volume: 1c Page: 427
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JaneyCanuck
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27 Nov 2007 00:00 |
Could this be the birth of Rosey, who was 3 months old in the 1891?
Name: Rosy Russell Year of Registration: 1891 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Pancras (1837-1901) County: London, Middlesex Volume: 1b Page: 54
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JaneyCanuck
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26 Nov 2007 22:48 |
Just wanted to mention that the Gladys Lydia birth I'd noted wasn't your Lydia; that Gladys Lydia is in the 1901 census being a different person.
Your Lydia was 15 in 1901. What's the chance that she was Caroline's mother?
Where's Rose in 1901? I can't identify her.
Maybe Lydia is this one? --
Name: Lydia Ann Russell Year of Registration: 1895 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Wandsworth County: Greater London, London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 720
Rose, dunno.
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JaneyCanuck
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26 Nov 2007 22:32 |
Yes, you silly -- I copied that marriage way back on page one. ;)
But if Caroline was born before 1901, where is she in 1901??
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John
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26 Nov 2007 22:10 |
Alfred could have been Carolines father or her uncle ???
Marriages Mar 1886 (97%) >>>>Gregory Lydia st saviour 1d150 Hunt Albert Edward st Saviour 1d 150 Montague Louisa Frances st Saviour 1d >>>>Russell Alfred St Saviour 1d 150
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JaneyCanuck
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26 Nov 2007 21:49 |
Yes indeed! A young Alfred who matches the one in 1901 etc., and has a mother Caroline. I should have pursued that, er, "-line" of enquiry a little further. ;)
Now if you can just figger out what his connection with Caroline the younger is ...!
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John
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26 Nov 2007 21:36 |
Hi Kathryn The 1901 and the 1881 census we think ties up well especially being a sawdust contractor. The death cert for Alfred also good. On more searching at the weekend we have come across this
Name: Charles Russell Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Caroline Gender: Male Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England Civil Parish: St George The Martyr Southwark Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene County/Island: London Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark Sub-registration district: Kent Road ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Alfred Russell 7 Caroline Russell 40 Charles Russell 42 Elizabeth Russell 4 Henry Russell 9 James Russell 16 Louisa Russell 2 Sarah Russell 13 William Russell 16 This the Young Alfred Russell with parents and a caroline but not the Caroline.
Looking through the others to check out.
Thanks for your help.
John
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John
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23 Nov 2007 17:54 |
Just to give you a clearer picture.... Caroline was my grandmother on my mothers side. My mother Doris being an only child. Mum knew Lydia and Rose. Lydia married a William ? Hughes had children Reg, Richard, Violet, and Lilian + and died in 1946. Rose married a walter Smith had children Rose ??? Thats about it I think Thanks again for all this assistance.
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JaneyCanuck
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23 Nov 2007 17:10 |
Just one question, John -- you're absolutely certain that Lydia and Rose are part of your family?? I'm assuming you or your parents actually knew them. ;)
If you come up with more info, or comments on any of this, just post it here -- the thread will pop up to the top of the list for me in "my threads", which makes it a lot easier to find than if you PM me and I have to go looking for the thread!
As for how to find it so quickly, you have to have a mind that works like a search engine. ;) And a search engine to work it on.
You gave a bunch of pieces of data -- the names Lydia and Rose especially, fortunately less common than Mary and Sarah. Search for one of them in the census database (I use Ancestry), with a guestimated age (I guessed young at first: 1890 to 1900), and find the two names together as sisters in a household, and you're probably onto something.
And just keep testing theories! That Caroline born in Wandworth looked like a good candidate, but when I searched for her in 1901, I found her with parents that didn't match any of your info. So she probably had to be ruled out.
And you watch for clues. That unmarried Mary Russell who might be your Caroline's mother had a mother named Caroline. Coincidence, or naming pattern?
I think we've found all the right people -- the question is: what is the connection between the two groups?
Alfred and Mary don't seem to have been siblings, so Lydia and Rose don't seem to have been Caroline's cousins. But it looks as if, at some point, Alfred took Caroline in, and she then stayed with Lydia and Rose.
It is possible that Alfred was really called Joseph, his middle name. People were often called by middle names, but sometimes put their formal first names on censuses.
... I've just looked at the images for a few Joseph Russells of the right age in the right vicinity to see whether there were any undertakers. No luck so far ... but I may have a look at the one whom Ancestry has transcribed as ... hold onto your hat ... a Copulation Officer. (He was a fireman, and a ditto to what may be "corporation officer".) No undertakers that I'm seeing.
So anyhow, get back once you and your sister have mulled it over and we'll see!
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John
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23 Nov 2007 16:29 |
Thank you so very much for your help Kathryn. All this information I dont know how you found it so quickly. Still trying to get my head around it and Im sure lots of it fits. I am sending it to my sister to view. I will let you know how we get on once we have mulled it over more. Thanks so very much. John
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2007 17:12 |
In case anybody's wondering -- John did PM me with the info in his second post up there, which I suggested he put in the thread for any helpers who happened by. I wasn't really just desperately seeking diversion from work. ;)
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2007 17:11 |
And for a completely different theory -- was Caroline *older* than you thought?
In 1901:
Name: Caroline Russell Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893 Relation: Daughter Mother's Name: Mary A Gender: Female Where born: Walworth, London, England Civil Parish: Newington Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: St Saviour Southwark Sub-registration district: St Peter, Walworth ED, institution, or vessel: 34 Household schedule number: 227
Francis Davies 31 - boarder, fruit hawker James Linton 13 Alfred Russell 4 Caroline Russell 8 Charlotte Russell 10 Henry Russell 13 James Russell 7 Mary A Russell 36 -- married (no husband present), flower seller
I'm not having any luck with them in 1891. Children Charlotte and Henry seem to be fostered out, and I can't identify Mary.
This looks like that Mary in 1881:
Name: Mary Russell Age: 19 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862 Relation: Boarder Gender: Female Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: West Ham County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: 19 Montesquieu St Occupation: Jute Spinner Registration district: West Ham Sub-registration district: West Ham
She's unmarried. And on the same page, we have a batch of other Russells: ... except they've been omitted from the transcription of the page by Ancestry ... three children whose parents ought to be on the preceding page, but the preceding page is a Clark household with Harris children.
Oh great. Ancestry has the page images out of order. The Russells are on page 11, the "preceding" page is page 12. Looking at page 10 ...
Charles and Mary Russell and 5 children, one of whom is a Charlotte.
Well this is an odd one. We have a household that matches all your details -- Alfred Russell, sawdust dealer, with children Lydia and Rose. And we have a Caroline who matches your details not badly -- born 1893 in Wandworth, with apparently unmarried mother Mary.
How about another theory? Caroline was the niece, not the daughter, of Alfred Russell.
I would bet that this is Mary in 1871 -- mother Caroline:
Name: Mary Ann Russell Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: George Mother's Name: Caroline Gender: Female Where born: St Luke, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: St Luke Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charterhouse County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: Holborn Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street ED, institution, or vessel: 16 Household schedule number: 55
Caroline Russell 27 Edward Russell 3 Ellen Russell 1 George Russell 35 Mary Ann Russell 5
No Alfred, though.
Here's what looks like Alfred in 1871:
Name: Alfred Russell Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863 Relation: Son Mother's Name: Eliza M Gender: Male Where born: Southwark, Surrey, England Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford Ecclesiastical parish: Hatcham St James Town: Deptford County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: Greenwich Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford ED, institution, or vessel: 42 Household schedule number: 32
Sarah Eacott 20 Alfred Russell 8 Anne M Russell 10 Edith A Russell 12 Eliza M Russell 45 Ellen Russell 14
No apparent connection.
I think I'm going to leave you to mull this over!
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2007 16:39 |
Which still leaves us with the question -- if those people are Caroline's family -- where is Caroline in 1901??
This looks like it's probably the Caroline born in Cambwell in 1896, in the 1901:
Name: Caroline Russell Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Thos Mother's Name: Victoria Gender: Female Where born: Camberwell, London, England Civil Parish: Camberwell Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom County/Island: London Country: England
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2007 16:35 |
That Russell household was in Southwark in 1901, and that Alfred Joseph died in Camberwell.
Might this be Caroline?
Name: Caroline Sarah Russell Year of Registration: 1896 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Camberwell (1837-1919) County: London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 950
Could be the parents marriage:
Marriages Mar 1886 **GREGORY Lydia St. Saviour 1d 150 Hunt Albert Edward St Saviour 1d 150 MONTAGUE Louisa Frances St. Saviour 1d 150 **RUSSELL Alfred St. Saviour 1d 150
Lydia Russell in the 1891/1901 was born in Crowydon c1869. In the 1881 there's a Lydia Gregory in Newington born c1868 in Bow. In the 1891, Lydia Jr.'s and Rosey's birthplace is reported as Newington.
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2007 16:28 |
This could be Lydia ...
Name: Gladys Lydia V Russell Year of Registration: 1888 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Wandsworth County: Greater London, London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 661
Here's a Rose:
Name: Rose Russell Year of Registration: 1891 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Wandsworth County: Greater London, London, Surrey Volume: 1d Page: 718
but that would be a very late registration for a chlid who was 3 months in the 1891 census.
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