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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 23:52 |
If the 1881 household in which James was lodger in 1881 is this one:
Name: James Young Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869 Relationship: Lodger Gender: Male Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire Registration Number: 776B Registration district: Ladhope Civil Parish: Melrose Town: Galashiels County: Selkirkshire
Address: 124 Magdala Terrace Occupation: Scholar
ED: 8 Page: 19 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 101 Line: 11 Roll: cssct1881_314
Household Members: Name Age John Young 23 Isabella Young 24 James Young 12 Janet Young 23 Mary Young 4 Thomas Young 3 Mo William Young 2
-- head of household is John Young, wife Isabella. Janet Young is also a lodger, the others are John's children.
That John and Janet don't match up with anyone in the 5 Abbey Close household in 1861 / 1871.
(Although the John Scott aged 7 in the 1861 household seems to be the John Young aged 17 in the 1871 household.)
I'm afraid I just feel like I'm not going to get any farther with this.
No father was named on James's birth record, his mother was Agnes Young. It seems that he invented the names of his parents for the purpose of his marriage. That's the best I can surmise!
My gr-grfather and his sister certainly invented a father when they married (a name composed of the given name of the man who was registered as their father and the surname they had decided to adopt as young adults, which *might* be the surname of their actual father). Not at all unusual for someone born outside marriage to make up a father when s/he married!
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sharon
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30 Dec 2007 23:40 |
kathryn i think by 1881 my gt grandad james had moved up to edinburgh i could be wrong
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sharon
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30 Dec 2007 23:40 |
thanks kathryn lew and alviegal this is so much help that was so badly needed its just a shame my grandad isnt here to see it all but it means so much to me thank you all
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 23:24 |
In 1881, 5 Abbey Close is occupied by:
Annie H Dawson 30 Robert Dawson 35
so no help there.
Can you remind me what this 1881 household in Lancashire is that I referred to for some reason way up at the top?
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 23:12 |
Hang on now -- Sharon started out at the very beginning saying:
"trying to find parents of james young born 1870 5 abbey close jedburgh on his marriage cert it says his parents are james young ships carpenter and agnes reid both are deceased when he marrys in 1899"
Now, we've certainly got the right household -- 5 Abbey Close is the address in those censuses.
But is it possible that the Agnes Reid I found was *not* a red herring? Is it possible that Sharon's James Young actually was the child of the James Young, son of Jane and William, and an Agnes Reid?
How about the possibility that he was illegitimate, but born to Agnes as James Reid?
Why would James have named Agnes Reid, whoever she was, as his mother on his marriage certificate?
Maybe because he really was making the whole thing up -- making up a married couple as his parents, so he had to have a surname for his mother Agnes, other than Young ...
editing ... nonono -- the address on that birth record is 5 Abbey Close, the consistent address throughout the censuses for the family of Agnes Young, unmarried daughter of Jane -- so that is obviously definitely our James's birth.
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 23:00 |
Hi alviegal -- as you see, Lewella found the record of James's birth at scotlandspeople and it specifies "illegitimate", I gather. I'm not sure whether Sharon took Lew up on her offer to send the image -- I just got a PM from Sharon, which is why I'm back mucking around here ;) ... once I figured out what the heck the PM was about ...
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 22:56 |
This is the household in the previous census, 1851:
Name: Agnes Young Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847 Relationship: Daughter Father's Name: William Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Female Where born: Morbattle, Roxburghshire Parish Number: 792 Civil Parish: Jedburgh Town: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire
Address: No 19 Occupation: Scholar
ED: 1 Page: 34 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 141 Line: 8 Roll: CSSCT1851_202
Household Members: Name Age William Scott 18 Agnes Young 4 Isabilla Young 7 James Young 9 Jane Young 39 Jane Young 2 Mo Thomas Young 2 William Young 39
So Agnes was the daughter of William Young and Jane, and when she had her son James Young in April 1869 she was unmarried.
This is Agnes's son James in 1871, with his grandmother:
Name: James Young Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869 Relationship: Grandson Gender: Male Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire Registration Number: 792/1 Registration district: Jedburgh Burgh Civil Parish: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire
Address: 5 Abbey Close
ED: 2 Page: 2 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 9/a Line: 11 Roll: CSSCT1871_179
Household Members: Name Age James Young 2 Jane Young 60 John Young 17
cont'd
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alviegal
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30 Dec 2007 22:55 |
Here's his birth
JAMES YOUNG Pedigree Male Event(s): Birth: 12 APR 1869 Jedburgh, Roxburgh, Scotland Christening: Death: Burial: Parents: Mother: AGNES YOUNG
No mention of a father.
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 22:51 |
Lewella tells us:
James Young was born illegitimate to Agnes Young at 4.30 am on 12th April 1869. Address is 5 Abbey Close, Jedburgh. Agnes was a domestic servant.
I think we can ignore most of the muddling around that I did before Lew came up with that.
Agnes in 1861 -- I'm pretty sure that the "Yancy", which has been added because that is supposedly her mother's name, is just a misreading of Jane Young's name:
Name: Agnes Young [Agnes Yancy] Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845 Relationship: Daughter Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Female Where born: Morebattle, Roxburghshire Registration Number: 792 Registration district: Jedburgh Civil Parish: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire
Address: Abbay Blasa No 5 Lans Occupation: Domestic Servant
ED: 6 Page: 10 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 49 Line: 16 Roll: CSSCT1861_140
Household Members: Name Age John Scott 7 William Scott 26 Jane Yancy 50 Agnes Young 16 Isabella Young 18 James Young 20 Jane Young 10 Thomas Young 18
William Scott, 26, and John Scott, 7, are both said to be sons of Jane. That seems rather odd.
My guess would be that William Scott is Jane Young's son by a previous marriage, and John Scott is his son.
James Young, 20, is a "Journeyman Saila".
con'td ...
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JaneyCanuck
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30 Dec 2007 22:44 |
Found your thread, Sharon, by searching the board for Agnes Young ...
You ask (and I must point out that Lewella is a star too!):
"I cant find that info anywhere so james was the illegitimate child of agnes young what year was she born? cant make it out. Did he turn out to be an only child? did his mum remarry another james im only asking cos you seem to have made more progress than i have ever done if there is the slightest chance I could help you with anything please let me know"
I just cross my fingers I never do need anything Scottish, myself! Let me have a look here now ...
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JaneyCanuck
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19 Dec 2007 02:14 |
Aha.
Agnes Young 16 - daughter of Jane, in 1861.
The James Young named on her son James's marriage certificate sounds like her brother, by name and trade.
Or is it still possible that the Agnes in 1861 was the wife of James Young, and was a widow when the 1869 James was born, making him illegitimate, with the surname of his mother's deceased husband?
Given the address of that household I was following around up there, that has to be the family, one way or another.
Doesn't really jibe with the 1881 household in Lancashire ...
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Lewella
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19 Dec 2007 02:01 |
I had a few spare credits on scotlandspeople and have made a discovery!
James Young was born illegitimate to Agnes Young at 4.30 am on 12th April 1869. Address is 5 Abbey Close, Jedburgh. Agnes was a domestic servant.
If you'd like the image, pm me your email address.
Regards Lewella
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 23:19 |
Looks like probably your best bet for Agnes in 1851:
-- edit 30 Dec 2007 -- this is a red herring. I'm leaving it here just so I don't confuse you by deleting it! This is not your Agnes and has nothing to do with her.
Name: Agnes Reid Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843 Relationship: Daughter Father's Name: John Mother's Name: Helen Gender: Female Where born: Paisley Newtown, Renfrewshire Occupation: Scholar
Parish Number: 792 Civil Parish: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire Address: 71 Canongate ED: 5 Page: 29 Household schedule number: 135 Line: 5 Roll: CSSCT1851_202
Agnes Reid 8 Alexander Reid 10 George Reid 11 Helen Reid 30 John Reid 37 John Mc J Reid 3
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 23:15 |
Looks like James Sr. in 1851:
-- edit 30 Dec 2007 -- "James Sr" here is really Agnes Young's brother. It could be his details that young James was using for his father, the actually non-existent "James Young" he named as his father on his marriage certificate, though.
Name: James Young Age: 9 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Relationship: Son Father's Name: William Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Male Where born: Morbattle, Roxburghshire Occupation: Scholar
Parish Number: 792 Civil Parish: Jedburgh Town: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire Address: No 19 ED: 1 Page: 34 Household schedule number: 141 Line: 6 Roll: CSSCT1851_202
William Scott 18 - son of Jane and William, it says Agnes Young 4 -- oops, no, there's a sister Agnes after all Isabilla Young 7 James Young 9 Jane Young 39 Jane Young 2 Mo Thomas Young 2 William Young 39
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 23:10 |
Aha, it gets messy in 1861.
Name: John Scott Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854 Relationship: Son Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Male Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Name: Jane Yancy (I would bit a fair bit that's "Young" mistranscribed) Age: 50 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811 Relationship: Head Gender: Female Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Name: James Young Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841 Relationship: Son Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Male Where born: Morebattle, Roxburghshire >> Occupation: Journeyman Saila
Registration Number: 792 Registration district: Jedburgh Civil Parish: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire >> Address: Abbay Blasa No 5 Lans ED: 6 Page: 10 Household schedule number: 49 Line: 19 Roll: CSSCT1861_140
Household Members: John Scott 7 - son of Jane William Scott 26 - son of Jane Jane Yancy 50 Agnes Young 16 - daughter of Jane Isabella Young 18 - daughter of Jane James Young 20 - son of Jane Jane Young 10 - daughter of Jane Thomas Young 18 - son of Jane
Too bad those images aren't available to refer to - but I think you can access them for a fee at scotlandspeople.
Does one suspect that Agnes, daughter of Jane, is really wife of James?
Have you checked at scotlandspeople for a marriage? It might have been earlier than you'd have thought.
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 23:02 |
The grandmother's info from 1871:
Name: Jane Young Age: 60 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811 Relationship: Head Gender: Female Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
And John would be younger brother of James:
Name: John Young Age: 17 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854 Relationship: Son Mother's Name: Jane Gender: Male Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire Occupation: Appr Tailor
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 23:00 |
Top of the list of search results for 1871:
Name: James Young Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869 Relationship: Grandson Gender: Male Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire Registration Number: 792/1 Registration district: Jedburgh Burgh Civil Parish: Jedburgh County: Roxburghshire Address: 5 Abbey Close ED: 2 Page: 2 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 9/a Line: 11 Roll: CSSCT1871_179 Household Members: Name Age James Young 2 Jane Young 60 John Young 17
That's certainly him, but unfortunately no parents in evidence.
With his grandmother's name, his father could perhaps be found in her household in previous censuses ...
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sharon
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18 Dec 2007 22:43 |
trying to find parents of james young born 1870 5 abbey close jedburgh on his marriage cert it says his parents are james young ships carpenter and agnes reid both are deceased when he marrys in 1899
1881 census says james aged 12 was lodger think this is same one
please if you can help let me know
sharon
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