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I now have a birth registration for Joseph Clayton Sep Qtr 1851.The only one in Bham...1851-1852.
Yes, maybe his parents got married 1852...oops. Perhaps the year out on later census returns may have just been given as that to save red faces?

Off to buy certs.

Ok Kathryn....you have been busy!!! many thx....

let me see starting from the 1881 census, your first try YES that is the correct family with Joseph as head age30 and Eliza given as Elizabeth. The baby Chris Clayton, was my maternal grandfather - who I never got to meet, but all my mom's family say I take after him!

There are no family papers or anything to turn to, so yes I will have to order them. There is nothing like a bit of confusion to draw you into the chase is there?
I wish they would stick to one name or other tho, ha ha.

I will have to get birth/death cert for Eliza to settle the name discrepancy and details and Joseph's as well.

Yep.... same lot in 1891 is correct. I think the best clue is the approx age of Joseph, so I'm going to follow up your leads sticking closest to this.

The maternal side of my tree past grandparents is a mystery at the moment. I'm sure it will be an interesting trail....

Many thx for your efforts, its still all a bit new to me knowing where best place to look first is. Your help is much appreciated.

Anji

The 1871 household in which the Joseph Clayton, grandson, is living (also in 1861) has this couple:


Marriages Dec 1866
>> GLOVER Ann M Aston 6d 397
Mason Emma Aston 6d 397
>> Mason George F Aston 6d 397
Taylor Francis Aston 6d 397


?? What is their relationship to Ann Ridley? She is recorded as "mother". Of Ann Maria Glover Mason?

There's only one Glover-Mason marriage in Warwickshire 1855 to 1865, and that's a Joseph Ridley to an Ann Glover in 1856, so that math doesn't work.

But might Joseph Ridley have previously had a child with a woman named Clayton ...?

But let's try the smarter tack, and look in 1851 for married Clayton couples in Birmingham. Here are some very likely suspects:

... oh, well, they were, until I discovered they already had a son named Joseph:

Ann Clayton 31
James Clayton 7
Joseph Clayton 40
Joseph Clayton 11


That leaves us (after ruling out Robert and Betsy) with these, who don't have a son named Joseph in 1851:


Name: Edwin Clayton
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham

Name: Eliza Clayton
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Edwin
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham

Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 21

Edwin Clayton 27
Edwin Clayton 5
Eliza Clayton 29
Emma Clayton 4
Sarah Clayton 3
Thos Clayton 1 Mo
Wm Clayton 9
Emma Freeth 13


Edwin is a gold chain maker. (Oh, oh! Maybe he knew my grx3 grfather, a goldbeater whom I can't find anywhere between his 1792 birth and his 1851 appearance in the workhouse in Wiltshire!)


Only problem being ... that household is intact in 1861:

Edwin Clayton 37
Eliza Clayton 39
Eliza Clayton 6
Emma Clayton 14
George Clayton 8
Hannah Clayton 2
Sarah Clayton 13
Thomas Clayton 10
William Clayton 19


So maybe Joseph's parents weren't married at all. What a rare bird he would be if so ..... not.

Or maybe he was just the straw that broke the camel's back in that largish family and got sent to the grandmother as a babe. Except they have kids younger than him.

I'll bet I'm doing everything you've already done, all over again, right? I shoulda waited and demanded that you disclose everything before starting. And now I'm on my last cigarette and must go eat dinner very soon.


One interesting couple in 1861, though:

Jane Bayliss 5 (lodger)
Jane Clayton 27
Joseph Clayton 33

This looks like him in 1851:

Joseph Clayton
abt 1827 Birmingham
Visitor
Birmingham Warwickshire

and this looks like it could be their marriage (the only Joseph Clayton + Jane page in Warwickshire, 1851-1861):

Marriages Jun 1852
Clayton Joseph Birmingham 6d 47
GEE Jane Birmingham 6d 47
Giles Benjamin Birmingham 6d 47
Kitchen Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 47


??

Buy the danged marriage certificate.

And oh goodie. Look what we get:


Marriages Sep 1845

Brown John Rotherham 22 373
Clayton Edward Rotherham 22 373
Hoole Elizabeth Rotherham 22 373
MELLARD Eliza Rotherham 22 373
Mitchell George Rotherham 22 373
RIDLEY Hannah Rotherham 22 373
RODGERS Mary Ann Rotherham 22 373
Roebuck Edward Rotherham 22 373

-- a possible Ridley-Clayton marriage, but not remotely in the right place.


And:


Marriages Sep 1850
Ridley Harriet * * *
Ridley Henry * * *


Look at that. Two possible Ridley-Clayton marriages (only one of which is of interest, it being a woman), and untranscribed locations and registration data.

Let's see whether Ancestry can come up with a readable scan.

... Well, I'd say Flogakney. But the vol and page numbers are legible: 3, 163. And I think it must be Hackney, which isn't of interest to us either. ... Yes, it's Hackney for that vol/page in that quarter. But never mind, the name isn't actually Ridley, it's Ridgeway. ... Which of course is because I'm looking at the wrong name. Harriet Ridley was married in Bristol, and I don't think there's any reason to think she married a Clayton anyway.

And in 1881 we have three:


Joseph Clayton Elizabeth abt 1851 Birmingham Head Wolverhampton Staffordshire

Joseph Clayton Maria abt 1848 Birmm, Warwickshire, England Head Birmingham Warwickshire

Joseph Clayton Christina abt 1847 Bham, Warwickshire, England Head Kings Norton Worcestershire


Yours does seem to be the odd one out.

I'm thinking it's his birthplace in the 1881 and 1891 that are suspect. People move away from home, their places of birth get vaguer. I've mentioned my grx2 grfather Francis Hoare Hill here -- he was born 1819 in Tamerton Foliatt, Devon; by 1861, when he was living in London, it was East Stonehouse, and by 1871 it was Devonport. Perhaps Joseph came from some less memorable bit of Warwickshire.


Let's start over. ... No, let's just delete what we did there, and start over a different way.


*One Joseph Clayton*

1851:

Joseph Clayton
William, Ann
abt 1848 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

1861:

Joseph Clayton
William, Ann
abt 1848 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

1871:

Joseph Clayton
William, Ann, Maria
abt 1844 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

1881:

Joseph Clayton
Maria
abt 1848 Birmm, Warwickshire, England

Not your Joseph Clayton.


*Two Joseph Clayton*


1851:

Joseph Clayton
Robert, Betsy
abt 1848 Birm, Warwickshire, England

1861:

It seems that Robert has died by 1861, and Betsy is living with her mother -- and Joseph has been mistranscribed at Ancestry as Josiah:

Name: Josiah Clayton
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Betsy

If he should turn out to be your Joseph, you're progressing, because Betsy's mother Charlotte Beardmor is in the household. I think he's not yours though; too old.

So that Joseph is probably *not* the one in 1861 living with grandmother Ann Ridley.

So that would make him:

1871:

Joseph Clayton
Christiana
abt 1848 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Not your Joseph Clayton.


That is leaving us with:

*Three Joseph Clayton*

1861:

Joseph Clayton
abt 1853 Birmingham
Grandson

William Alcock 21
Joseph Clayton 8
Lewis T Howe 23
Ann Madley 58
(Ridley's the better reading, I'd say)

1871:

Joseph Clayton
abt 1852 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Grandson

Joseph Clayton 19
Ann Maria Mason 35
Claudius Mason 3
Fanny M Mason 11 months
George F Mason 25
Ann Ridley 67


Your Joseph Clayton - ?


Armed with the knowledge that his mother could have been a Ridley, we ask FreeBMD for marriages, 1840-1852, Ridley and Clayton.

Do you like this one in 1871?


Name: Joseph Clayton
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Household schedule number: 32

Joseph Clayton 19
Ann Maria Mason 35
Claudius Mason 3
Fanny M Mason 11 months
George F Mason 25
Ann Ridley 67


The other Joseph Claytons born in Birmingham in the 1881 aren't really the right age to be that one in 1871. But he's an iron stove maker.


And this one:


Name: Joseph Clayton
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Christiana
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil Parish: Walsall
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Walsall
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England


is a whip maker. Ew. And he's in Worcestershire in 1881, same wife.


I'm seeing your problem. In 1861, we have the same two:


Joseph Clayton
William, Ann
abt 1848 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Son
Aston Warwickshire

Joseph Clayton
abt 1853 Birmingham
Grandson
Birmingham Warwickshire

The 1881 birth place for Eliza is of course Dawley Green, not Dawby Green.

They were a little advanced in years when they married. Good chance at least one was married before?

Oh, and why don't you have that marriage cert? It would tell all. Not a whooole lot of point in mucking about in the censuses without it, but we shall.


Considered this one in 1871, who fit so beautifully:


Name: Eliza Guy
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Enoch
Gender: Female
Where born: Dawley, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Dawley
Ecclesiastical parish: Malinslee
Town: Malinslee
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England


but she's still there in 1881. Dang.

... But it's Joseph you're asking about ...

1881:


Name: Joseph Clayton
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham
Occupation: Drayman At Brewery
Condition as to marriage: Married

Name: Elizabeth Clayton
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Joseph
Gender: Female
Where born: Dawby Green, Shropshire, England

Street address: 13 Inkerman St

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Wolverhampton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 18

Christopher Clayton
Elizabeth Clayton 36
Harriet Clayton 4
Joseph Clayton 30


1891:


Name: Joseph Clayton
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham

Name: Eliza Clayton
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Joseph
Gender: Female
Where born: Madeley, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Wolverhampton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 13

Christopher Clayton 10
Eliza Clayton 45
Frederick Clayton 8
Harriet L Clayton 14



Izzat them?

Info on her a little muddled there. I shall go in search.

For Anji, who says:

Looking for back info for JOSEPH CLAYTON who married ELIZA GUY in 1875. (Wolverhampton 6b p 910.) Pretty sure this is the correct Mg reg.

Eliza's possible death cert reg. aged 62 (1910 W-ton 6b p 355) spells her with an S not a Z, but Z is on the marriage reg. I don't have a birth date for her, but this looks most likely (at present).

I'm looking for any census info and any parentage, but census searches on here not coming up with much.

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info follows.