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Carole
More confirmation for you
From Durham County Council site .
Joseph Hanover married 1890 to Sarah Johnson, Sarah Murdoch.

This is a great site for marriages because it gives the spouse not just a possible. Also it gives former names for the spouse.


AND ITS FREE.

Hello All
Ann Clarks; born Simpson .... Durham about 1797, are doing my head in. There are several; all very similar and each has an unexpected twist that makes it seem definitely possibility ... but each also has a significant negative.
I think my hypothesis was just too good to be true!!!
I'm going to give my brain a rest and hope for new inspiration.
I may give 'communing with the dead', as my husband calls it, a miss for the rest of today?
So ....Bye for now
Carole

Thank you Margaret
Good point!! It never crossed my mind that legal adoption is 'relatively' recent.
Carole

Just to add. Legal adoptions only began in England on 1st Jan 1927.

Names changed on census was just easier than explaining . Or perhaps they were known by the same name but later married under their birth name.

Hello Mel
Lots to think about ... lots to do.
Your Clark interpretation is certainly a strong possibility and I agree that Ann and Thomas Clark had almost certainly both been married before.
I have here, another possible scenario but as yet nothing to substantiate it.
How about ...
An Ann SIMPSON (Who could have been born as early as 1796 ... if she later became the Ann Clark of the 1841 Census, who was 45 at that time) marries, pre 1831, a Johnson of unknown given name and of indeterminate age.
Their 1st child, born about 1832, was named Richard SIMPSON Johnson ( It has endured ever since: my cousin is the 5th of that name ).
Ann Johnson, nee Simpson, is widowed post 1835, pre 1939.
In 1839 she marries Thomas Clark; taking to the marriage her two Johnson children who retain their Johnson name.
Thomas already has 4 Clark children from his previous marriage.
In 1839 the eldest would have been 9 and the youngest 1. ... suggesting that his first wife had not been dead long and that his first marriage took place pre 1829/30 ( a bit early for his first wife to have been the Ann Simpson of Feckenham who married a Thomas Clarke in 1833 ?)
I'm tempted to purchase the marriage certificate for Ann Johnson and Thomas Clark, that you mention. Should it turn out to be our two suspects it would be one more step in the right direction!
A bit of a fairy-tale but worth investigating don't you think??
Enough for tonight!!
Carole

Hi Carole

Could I ask you to let us know when you get the certificates, I've got my fingers crossed :-)

Regards
LfW

Hello again Mel
I do have some of this information in my tree but there is new material that I have not seen before. I need to sort this out and take time to think about it.
Thank you so much for the work you have put in. I never expected to get such a response.
I sent for the marriage certificate for Richard and Sarah and for good measure, a death certificate for a Richard Johnson, who died 1886. If it isn't the correct Richard, and he didn't die in 1886 we could all be barking up the wrong tree?
Carole.

Hi LforW
I think you may be right. Amazing!! ..
However if Sarah Hanover, born in Jarrow Durham 1862, was previously Sarah Johnson and before that was Sarah Murdoch, born Jarrow Durham 1862; I should be able to find a birth to that effect. So far I have been unable to find one?
However, Alma Street seems fairly conclusive.
Thanks for putting the work in!!!
Carole.

Hi Carole

You have to think back to the times and the stigma involved in having a different surname to your siblings. It just made life easier. They couldn't explain to the enumerator that Sarah was previously a widow and Richard was from her previous marriage so they just said he was a Hanover or the enumerator assumed he was. He probably never changed his name.

Regards
LfW

Hello again Lost for Words
I'm still trying to sort out the implications of your long missive. At a glance I had missed the Alma Street connection!!! OMG indeed!!! This needs careful thought. I'm going away to try to get my head around it.
Carole

Hello Lost for Words
Hmm!! That would be a real pain in the neck!!
Was it legal to do such things without a formal adoption? ... I suppose simple people didn't understand, or bother about legalities?
If it did happen, Richard Jnr. reverted to Johnson later, as he married as Richard Simpson Johnson in 1910.
But ... food for thought, Thanks!

Carole

OMG

In the 1901 census they are living at !!!!

133 Up Alma Street, West Hartlepool.

Could all be a coincidence!!

Their is this marriage:

Marriages Dec 1890 (>99%)
Coxon Barbara Durham 10a 551
Hanover Joseph Durham 10a 551
Johnson Sarah Durham 10a 551
Routledge Joseph Durham 10a 551

And then this census:

1891 census transcription details for: 45, Derwent Street, Stranton, West Hartlepool
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 4063 Folio: 92 Page: 30

Reg. District: Hartlepool Sub District: Hartlepool
Enum. District: 37 Ecclesiastical District: St Pauls
Parish: Stranton City/Municipal Borough: West Hartlepool
Address: 45, Derwent Street, Stranton, West Hartlepool
County: Durham

Name Relationship to
Head of H'hold Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Disability Where Born
HANOVER, Joseph Head Married M 34 Joiner
Washington, Durhamshire
HANOVER, Sarah Wife Married F 29
Jarrow, Durhamshire
HANOVER, Jane Daughter F 7 Scholar
Durham, Durhamshire
HANOVER, Richard Son M 4
Durham, Durhamshire


1901 England Census
about Richard Hanover
Name: Richard Hanover
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Durham, England

Civil Parish: West Hartlepool
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hartlepool St Paul
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

Registration district: Hartlepool
Sub-registration district: Hartlepool
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
Eleanor Hanover 5
Jane Hanover 17
Jos Hanover 3
Joseph Hanover 44
Lydia Hanover 7
Marg Hanover 9
Richard Hanover 14
Sarah Hanover 39

I can't see a birth for Richard Hanover!

Hi Carole

Have you considered that Sarah may have remarried after Richards death and on the census' after that Richard jnr was entered under his stepfathers surname!?!

Regards
LfW

I'm not sure about a Devon connection. I can see where you are going but I think this is something I might have heard about? ... But the rest just gets better and better!

Carole

Thanks Mel. This more or less confirms the BMD record I have found,as being the correct one. I feel better now about spending £7 on 'yet another' certificate. At least I will find out where Sarah was living and what her father did. I'll order it today!
Regards
Carole

I have considered that they might have 'returned to Scotland' but I have no positive proof that Sarah actually came from Scotland. I am going on the very Scottish name Murdoch and vague allusions in my childhood that one of my great grandmothers was Scottish and came from Hawick; none of the others fit the bill! ... I can't actually find much about Sarah but I think I have found the correct marriage details so my next move might be to buy yet another certificate.
As for the newspaper suggestion ... Grandfather Johnson died in 1936. The Daily Herald, the paper he worked for, closed in about 1964. Murdoch bought the organisation so The Sun may have the archives, or they may be held at the National media Museum which is I think in Yorkshire. This may be a route to follow? Thanks for the suggestion. ... I do however have quite a lot of information about my grandfather's life, post 1910. It is the missing 24 years, 1886 - 1910 that are really bugging me!
Thanks for giving the problem some thought.

Would mum and kiddie go back to Scotland if the husband died? If Richard became a successful man/editor of a national paper - would the paper not be able to supply any helpful details?

A doubt did creep in so I have rechecked the details of the Richard Simpson Johnson born 1881 and I can confirm that he is most unlikely to be my grandfather ( Richard Simpson Johnson born 1886.whose birth certificate I have.)
For the record;apart from the date of birth discrepancy; in the 1891 census, Richard's (later the 'patient') parents were listed as John Johnson, age 31 and Margaret, age 34, of 9 Moody Buildings, St Giles Durham ... not Richard and Sarah. At this date Richard is 10 years old, not 4 or 5 as my Richard would have been. Richard 1881, is one of six children and he is noted, in the census, as having been dumb and paralysed from birth. It doesn't sound as if this is something from which he would have been likely to have made a recovery. Poor little mite! Obviously later he was institutionalised.
But whatever, thank you Paul for taking the trouble to answer! I'll find the missing years eventually.

Thanks for your input. All ideas very gratefully received!
I too have thought of that idea but it just doesn't fit.
I have traced the patient in the asylum back and he was brain damaged and paralysed from birth. My grandfather had no such problems. He was extremely active, very successful and he went on to become the managing editor of a national newspaper. ... I don't remember the exact details but I think the 'patient' came from a different family in a different area of Durham.