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Ah, but not before having the evidence deleted again, eh?

You gave unsubstantiated info that turned out to be wrong, and still aren't identifying the sources of other info. Sounds like time, indeed.

If you're doing to demand that someone's posts be deleted simply because you don't like them (no rules were broken), have the courtesy not to keep replying to them when you refuse to tolerate being answered.

Yes the info about the children was in error, the only incorrect piece if information here. However it was also totally irrelevant. I'm looking for the parents ancestry, not the descendants, and knowing their info doesn't help, as grateful as I am to Gael for finding the children, I think sadly,it's time to put this post to bed. Linda

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Well it goes on. It seems that John and Elizabeth had 13 children in all, those that Gael found, another selina christened 1805, and then elizabeth no dob, john ditto, sarah 1822, caroline 1823 and charles augustus 1825. This is my source's ancestor (his name is Ron by the by and I have his permission to post that on here!), Charles A is his ancestor and definitely born france,as perhaps are the others, as I can't locate them on family search. Still trying to forge a link between Isaac sarah and elizabeth. Regards Linda :)

Please Gael, don't do that, any help is much appreciated, and while my post may not have been clear enough for some, there has been so much information about this family, that it takes a while to take it on board, and today is the only day I work and come home to find this. Identifying sources doesn't belie or verify the facts as they believe them to be, which is why people ask for help. My "source" has one family, I have another which we believe to be linked. Lord Janey, why be so negative, I seem to have really irritated you. For that I apologise, perhaps you might prefer to "help" someone else?

As to the question of whether the children were those of John and Elizabeth, the answer is yes. My "source" was extremely happy to be corrected and to be provided with the right details. Having never met him, I am surmising from his details that he is a more mature gentleman, reasonably new to this and has asked me to pass on his thanks.

Also yes to the father of John married to mary being william. I ascertained that from the census where he gives his age as being born 1782/3 in mitcham surrey, and that birth seems to ,match. Regards Linda :)

So John's [married to Mary] father was William?

Hi Gael, well I also stand corrected, and something to pass on to the descendant of john and elizabeth, who had told me they were all born in france!!. Given that I mainly wanted to try and establish a link between the two johns I hadn't pursued those details.

The john you found b 1782 is the one married to mary, going by the census records.

The later births you found may be the descendants of the children you found of john and elizabeth. I know that John newton osborn and his wife mary had no children.

Lordy, this gets confusing!! At the mo' I.m trying to search the other witnesses to john and elizabeths marriage as pointed out by sylvia, there are so many isaac newtons it;s crazy!! Regards Linda :)

Other earlier Osborns born in Stockwell where we may pick up a connection.

Name: Frederick William Osborn
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 21 Aug 1867
Baptism/Christening Place: Stockwell, Surrey, England
Father's Name: THOMAS OSBORN
Mother's Name: Sarah Osborn

Name: Edith Genney Osborne
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 14 Mar 1875
Baptism/Christening Place: Stockwell, Surrey, England
Father's Name: THOMAS OSBORNE
Mother's Name: Sarah Osborne

Name: Annie Mary Osborn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 12 Jan 1873
Baptism/Christening Place: Stockwell, Surrey, England
Birth Date: 19 Dec 1872
Father's Name: HENRY OSBORN:
Mother's Name: Charlotte Osborn

Name: Annie Alice Osborne
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 14 Mar 1875
Baptism/Christening Place: Stockwell, Surrey, England
Father's Name: HENRY OSBORNE
Mother's Name: Charlotte Osborne

Name: Thomas Samuel Osborne
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Oct 1876
Baptism/Christening Place: Stockwell, Surrey, England
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORNE
Mother's Name: Martha Osborne

Children of John Osborn and Elizabeth Newton

Name: William Osborn
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 May 1809
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 10 May 1808
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Name: Matilda Osborn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 17 Nov 1811
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 13 Jan 1811
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Name: Fanny Osborn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 19 May 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 15 Sep 1815
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Name: Emma Osborn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 03 May 1818
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 31 Jan 1817
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Name: Frederick Osborn
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Mar 1819
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 17 Sep 1818:
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Name: Amelia Osborn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 29 Apr 1810
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 29 Sep 1809
Father's Name: JOHN OSBORN:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Newton

Hi Linda,

I stand corrected on writing that John and Elizabeth had John and Sarah. Because everything is on one continuous line I miss-read it. It would be much easier with paragraphs and families separated.

I see that John Newton Osborn born 1813 [1812] was christened in the same church as John Osborn and Elizabeth Newton's children and now see why there may be a strong connection. However you wrote at the beginning that John and Elizabeth had their children in France.

Name: John Newton Osborn
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 28 Jan 1813
Baptism/Christening Place: STOCKWELL NEW CHAPEL INDEPENDENT,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 25 Aug 1812
Father's Name: John Osborn:
Mother's Name: Mary Newton

John Osborn of Mitcham.
I want to establish if this record below is the John born 1783 married to Mary Ann Newton, or the other John born 1782 we are trying to relate to.

Name: John Osborn
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 24 Nov 1782
Baptism/Christening Place: MITCHAM,SURREY,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Osborn

hi sylvia, yes I had seen that. Unfortunately I'm not sure who sarah or Isaac are, possibly siblings? Regards Linda :)

Did you notice that there were apparently THREE witnesses
to John Osborn / Elizabeth Newton marriage in 1804?

from ancestry


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: John Osborn
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Newton
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 19 Feb 1804
Parish: St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark


from image:-

Witnesses, Wm Newton, Sarah Newton, S Newton




sylvia

He also claimed he was a batchelor despite having 7 children from his marriage to sarah!! I'm beginning to think I'm never going to solve this and the link is the two sisters, although john newton osborn was born and lived in surrey and his wife mary walker was born in herts. All I know is that john newton osborn seems to have been an "upstanding member of society", having served on the parish board of a charity, raised my gt gt grandfather and employed half of his own family and this other john osborns (1782)!! A mystery unsolved, don't like them! Regards Linda :)

Something to note: at that time, it was illegal for a man to marry his deceased wife's sister.

That's why I'm the product of unmarried grx2 grandparents in one line. ;)

So if William Walker did marry the sister of his deceased wife, he did it without declaring the relationship, and illegally. Since, if recall correctly, he did it in two places remote from each other, presumably he could have got away with it.

Hi janey, yeh I thought of that, and I do have Elizabeths father as one william newton from her marriage in 1804, however I can't find anything on mary ann, her birthdate is given as c 1789 on the census in surrey, but there are no marriage details, or birth that I can find anyway! I really did start to think that perhaps this was one family, but john 1782's children were all born in france and john 1783 in surrey. Regards Linda :) PS the information about john 1782 and elizabeth was given to me by a descendant of their's who was the only surviving heir and sold the recipe for gentlemans relish. He had papers from his gt gt gt grandfather confirming the marriages between the two osborn sisters and my william walker.

John Osborn 1783 is the father of John Newton Osborn 1813.

John Osborn 1782 is the uncle of John Newton Osborn 1813.

Well, John 1783 and John 1782 aren't brothers.

If John 1783 was married to
- the sister of John 1782
or
- the sister of John 1782's wife
he would be the uncle by marriage of John 1813.

That's the only possibility that would make him the uncle, really.

But then we still don't know what information there is, or where it came from, to say he was.

You have the two elder Johns as being married to Mary Ann Newton and Elizabeth Newton.

Surely the question is whether *they* were sisters, and thus it is *their* parentage you want to be investigating.


edit - I realize it's the identity of the elder Johns you're wanting to establish, but it could be worthwhile to establish the identity/relationship of their wives, to see whether/how the Johns were related that way, anyway.

hi gael, thanks again for your interest. As you said, I am trying to work out any relationship between john newton osborn b 1813 in lambeth, and john osborn b 1782 don't know where. This john is not his father, but they are somehow linked. I have exhausted all other avenues, ie marriages, birth records of siblings etc, so decided to try and track down john 1782 and his siblings, as you say there are a few, unfortunately all female. Again I've exhausted all marriages that took place, none of them record a parents name.

Then unfortunately (and as I said it is confusing) your next post is a litle of!!! John and elizabeth did not have john or sarah, john and sarah are siblings. John osborn 1783 mitcham surrey is married to mary ann and is the father of john newtonosborn b 1813. John osborn b 1782 is married to elizabeth, and is apparently the uncle of johnn newton osborn. It is his and his siblings as outlined in my original post that I am trying to find the parent's of. I think that had I just stuck to birthdates and names then this would not have become so muddied!! Regards Lynda :)

Time I turned in

Again I've taken the liberty of separating the info given ...

It looks like you know who some of the children's parents are

John (3) and Elizabeth had JOHN Osborn c 1782, SARAH Osborn c 1786

William Walker married two siblings and SARAH in 1803 in Bucks, CHARLOTTE in 1818 in London – Now is this the same Sarah that was John and Elizabeth’s Sarah or a different one?

William and Sarah had a daughter MARY, whose brother WILLIAM is my ancestor.

Mary married John Newton Osborn whose aunts are Sarah and Charlotte [sisters above]

I'm trying to ascertain is the link between his FATHER John Osborn b 1783 in Mitcham Surrey, and John Osborn b 1782 whereabouts unknown. - Whose father do you mean and which of these Johns is married to who?

I thought to give this another go ....

I have taken Linda's own word and altered them a little.

(1) JOHN OSBORN apparently married a MARY ANN NEWTON.
One of the children of john and mary ann is my ancestor,

(2) JOHN NEWTON OSBORN, he married one MARY WALKER daughter of the marriage of william walker and sarah osborn (see previous post i.e his first cousin, that has been verified). John newton osborn ran a very successful oilman/colour trade business employing both his own siblings and partners, and those CHILDREN of (3) JOHN and ELIZABETH. (2) john newton osborn was an agent for the relish in London

(3)JOHN OSBORN (of the 1804 marriage) invented gentlemans relish (in france!


So we have three Johns, but you want to know if John (2) and John (3) are related.

Now going back to your original question that you wanted to find the parents of John, Sarah, Charlotte, Maria etc. [can't remember them all]

It looks like there are two subjects here ....

Are you trying to ascertain that the children belong to one of the Johns 1, 2, or 3 or someone else?