Find Ancestors

Help please!! I am trying to find the parents of the following with absolutely no joy, I have the marriages but they all seem to have been each others witnesses so no luck there!

John Osborn c 1782, sarah osborn c 1786, matilda c 1788, charlotte c 1790, fanny c 1794 and maria c 1796. I've tried ancestry and family search, but unless their parents travelled the length and breadth of britain then I can't piece them together, thanks for any help, lynda :)

It could help if you told us *where* the marriages are, so we don't have to go hunting ourselves!

Do you have records of them in early censuses, and are any birthplaces given? All but one of them are women, and so we couldn't even begin to identify them in censuses ourselves to find this info.

How do you know that they are siblings? Do the signatures match on the marriages?

Hi there, well even the marriages are in different counties, but: john osborn married one elizabeth newton in london in 1804, sarah married a william walker in bucks in 1803, then when she died in 1813, he went up to london and married her sister charlotte in 1818. Caroline and Matilda I haven't been able to find anything about, Fanny married a john wrightson, in 1817 in london, and maria again nothing. Their signatures all matched, unless of course they made their mark!! Cheers Lynda :)

Unfortunately, this is all impossible for anyone else to sort out.

The thing to do, ordinarily, is tell us what you connection is with at least one of these people -- one of them is your ancestor?

Then, how you have reached that person -- what child of theirs is your ancestor, and how you established that connection, and how you know that the person in question is the parent of that child.

For instance, if you haven't been able to figure out anything about Caroline and Matilda, where did your knowledge of them come from in the first place?? That they're witnesses on other marriages? If that's the case, they could be cousins, sisters-in-law ... unrelated ...

You have the information. Nobody else does. It's pointless not to give what you have, if you'd like someone else to try to help.

OK but you're going to be sorry!!! One john osborn c 1782 married elizabeth newton in 1804. This is the john I'm trying to find the parentage of. The marriage cert only gives elizabeth's fathers name of william newton.

Another john osborn apparently married a mary ann newton. They both had several children, who married. One of the children of john and mary ann is my ancestor, john newton osborn, he married one mary walker daughter of the marriage of william walker and sarah osborn (see previous post i.e his first cousin, that has been verified). John newton osborn ran a very successful oilman/colour trade business employing both his own siblings and partners, and those children of john and elizabeth. John osborn (of the 1804 marriage) invented gentlemans relish (in france!), john newton osborn was an agent for the relish in london. What I'm trying to ascertain is the link between these families. I hope this helps, it is a really confusing convoluted tangle!! Cheers Lynda :)

ps it's 7pm here, dinner time, so shall log back in later. Thanks for the interest! Cheers Lynda :)

ref ...

Groom's Name: John Osborn
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Newton
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 19 Feb 1804
Marriage Place: Saint Mary Magdalene,Bermondsey,London,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00158-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 97133
Reference Number:
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

I'm still confused!

Hi gael, it is confusing! I thought for a while that it may be the same family, but john and elizabeth had all their children in france, and john and mary ann in and around surrey, but they are definitely linked, I just can't work out how!! regards Lynda :)

And sadly, none of us (or at least me) can figure out where all the names in the first post, and the sibling relationship among them asserted there, came from, still ... Unless you aren't asserting that they're all siblings??

In either event, just can't figure out where any of them other than the John come into anything.

Would it really be that difficult to post the details of the marriages you say you have, and some reasonably clear explanation of how a connection among them was established?


Groom's Name: William Walker
Bride's Name: Sarah Osborn
Marriage Date: 17 Nov 1803
Marriage Place: Bletchley,Buckingham,England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00834-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 88488
Reference Number:
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

... It was in Buckinghamshire ...


Results for: Osborn, British Isles
Batch Number: M008341

1. CHARLOTTE OSBORN - Marriage: 05 MAY 1795 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
2. ELIZABETH OSBORN - Marriage: 03 DEC 1795 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
3. SARAH OSBORN - Marriage: 17 NOV 1803 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
4. WILLIAM OSBORNE - Marriage: 16 MAY 1765 Bletchley, Buckingham, England

Now that wasn't hard at all.

William there is a different generation:

WILLIAM OSBORNE
Spouse: JANE JONES
Marriage: 16 MAY 1765 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
Batch No.: M008341


Any Event, 1765 - 1805, British Isles
Father: William Osborn, Mother: Jane

SARAH OSBOURNE - Death: 25 APR 1776
SARAH OSBOURNE - Christening: 28 DEC 1775 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
HANNAH OSBOURN - Death: 01 NOV 1793
HANNAH OSBOURN - Christening: 12 MAY 1778 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
JANE OSBORNE - Death: 04 MAY 1767
JANE OSBORNE - Christening: 14 DEC 1766 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
MARY OSBORNE - Death: 09 NOV 1776
MARY OSBORNE - Christening: 08 JUL 1770 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
ELIZABETH OSBORN - Christening: 08 AUG 1773 Bletchley, Buckingham, England


Osborn, British Isles
Batch Number: P008341
-- leaving aside those already shown above:

GARNET OSBORN - Christening: 22 APR 1798 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents Jno Osborn & Elizabeth
HANNAH OSBORN - Christening: 04 SEP 1803 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents John Warren Osborn & Elizabeth
JOHN OSBORN - Christening: 23 MAY 1824 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents John W Osborn & Elizabeth
JOHN OSBORN - Christening: 26 FEB 1796 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents Charles Osborn & Diana
CHARLES OSBORN - Christening: 13 OCT 1799 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents Charles Osborn & Dinah
SARAH OSBORN - Christening: 10 NOV 1822 Bletchley, Buckingham, England
- parents Charles Osborn & Dinah


Just for an overview.

Hello again, john sarah et al are siblings, this is from a direct descendant of john osborn 1782 and elizabeth newton. Two siblings married one william walker, sarah in 1803 in bucks, charlotte in 1818 in london. William and sarah had a daughter mary, whose brother william is my ancestor. Mary married john newton osborn whose aunts are sarah and charlotte. All I'm trying to ascertain is the link between his father John Osborn b 1783 in mitcham surrey, and John osborn b 1782 whereabouts unknown. I've been researching this side for several years now with no joy, believe the helpers on here are fantastic, and know from past experience that it's worth asking for help. Thanks again for your interest. Regards Lynda :)

Always worth asking for help.

But the helpers who have been here for some time generally aren't much up to wild goose chases ... hunts based on hand-me-down info not backed up by records, chasing connections there is no basis for inferring.

And repeating the same thing over and over, in big run-on paragraphs that only someone who has spent their life immersed in the facts can follow without a flowchart and a headache, well, it just doesn't help.

All I was trying to do was find some actual *facts* that might be investigated further, in aid of constructing some framework for this family name in that location, and I spent a fair bit of time trying to do that, but hey nonny.

I don't believe this is a wild goose chase or I wouldn't be asking for help, these people are my family, therefore important to me and worth researching, I believe I thanked you, because I do appreciate any grain of info that might help. All the info on my post is backed up by facts, as proved by the marriage details provided that you then reiterated. I don't know why we have to do this every time I ask for help? I'm not looking for descendants or marriage partners, I have those and have provided the details when requested, what I'm trying to do is find a link between these siblings. Cheers lynda :(

I thought to give this another go ....

I have taken Linda's own word and altered them a little.

(1) JOHN OSBORN apparently married a MARY ANN NEWTON.
One of the children of john and mary ann is my ancestor,

(2) JOHN NEWTON OSBORN, he married one MARY WALKER daughter of the marriage of william walker and sarah osborn (see previous post i.e his first cousin, that has been verified). John newton osborn ran a very successful oilman/colour trade business employing both his own siblings and partners, and those CHILDREN of (3) JOHN and ELIZABETH. (2) john newton osborn was an agent for the relish in London

(3)JOHN OSBORN (of the 1804 marriage) invented gentlemans relish (in france!


So we have three Johns, but you want to know if John (2) and John (3) are related.

Now going back to your original question that you wanted to find the parents of John, Sarah, Charlotte, Maria etc. [can't remember them all]

It looks like there are two subjects here ....

Are you trying to ascertain that the children belong to one of the Johns 1, 2, or 3 or someone else?

Again I've taken the liberty of separating the info given ...

It looks like you know who some of the children's parents are

John (3) and Elizabeth had JOHN Osborn c 1782, SARAH Osborn c 1786

William Walker married two siblings and SARAH in 1803 in Bucks, CHARLOTTE in 1818 in London – Now is this the same Sarah that was John and Elizabeth’s Sarah or a different one?

William and Sarah had a daughter MARY, whose brother WILLIAM is my ancestor.

Mary married John Newton Osborn whose aunts are Sarah and Charlotte [sisters above]

I'm trying to ascertain is the link between his FATHER John Osborn b 1783 in Mitcham Surrey, and John Osborn b 1782 whereabouts unknown. - Whose father do you mean and which of these Johns is married to who?

Time I turned in

hi gael, thanks again for your interest. As you said, I am trying to work out any relationship between john newton osborn b 1813 in lambeth, and john osborn b 1782 don't know where. This john is not his father, but they are somehow linked. I have exhausted all other avenues, ie marriages, birth records of siblings etc, so decided to try and track down john 1782 and his siblings, as you say there are a few, unfortunately all female. Again I've exhausted all marriages that took place, none of them record a parents name.

Then unfortunately (and as I said it is confusing) your next post is a litle of!!! John and elizabeth did not have john or sarah, john and sarah are siblings. John osborn 1783 mitcham surrey is married to mary ann and is the father of john newtonosborn b 1813. John osborn b 1782 is married to elizabeth, and is apparently the uncle of johnn newton osborn. It is his and his siblings as outlined in my original post that I am trying to find the parent's of. I think that had I just stuck to birthdates and names then this would not have become so muddied!! Regards Lynda :)

John Osborn 1783 is the father of John Newton Osborn 1813.

John Osborn 1782 is the uncle of John Newton Osborn 1813.

Well, John 1783 and John 1782 aren't brothers.

If John 1783 was married to
- the sister of John 1782
or
- the sister of John 1782's wife
he would be the uncle by marriage of John 1813.

That's the only possibility that would make him the uncle, really.

But then we still don't know what information there is, or where it came from, to say he was.

You have the two elder Johns as being married to Mary Ann Newton and Elizabeth Newton.

Surely the question is whether *they* were sisters, and thus it is *their* parentage you want to be investigating.


edit - I realize it's the identity of the elder Johns you're wanting to establish, but it could be worthwhile to establish the identity/relationship of their wives, to see whether/how the Johns were related that way, anyway.

Hi janey, yeh I thought of that, and I do have Elizabeths father as one william newton from her marriage in 1804, however I can't find anything on mary ann, her birthdate is given as c 1789 on the census in surrey, but there are no marriage details, or birth that I can find anyway! I really did start to think that perhaps this was one family, but john 1782's children were all born in france and john 1783 in surrey. Regards Linda :) PS the information about john 1782 and elizabeth was given to me by a descendant of their's who was the only surviving heir and sold the recipe for gentlemans relish. He had papers from his gt gt gt grandfather confirming the marriages between the two osborn sisters and my william walker.