Genealogy Chat

So far as the missing elements of the coroner's office paperwork is concerned, there is a policy document available concerned with the preservation/disposal of coroners' records for the period 1970 to 2000. An extract reads:

"Coroners’ registers of reported deaths should be preserved permanently in local record offices.
6.21
All files relating to reported deaths which do not proceed to inquest may be destroyed when they are 15 years old or may be sampled by the local record office.
6.22
Ideally all inquest files should be preserved permanently. Where local record offices cannot readily accommodate the volume of these files, the bulk should be reduced by preserving only the key documents for each case. If further reduction is necessary, archivists may preserve a sample of cases in line with The National Archives’ published guidance on sampling (OSP 0).
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When sampling is used, files should be selected in addition to the sample if they are potentially of national interest because they
• Set a precedent in law or practice
• Relate to an individual, accident or crime subject to prolonged or repeated interest from the national media"

This is from this pdf document:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/osp6.pdf

Oh wow, just followed up that tip to google "burial laws", and the first hit to come up said this:

"Garden Burial
It is possible to bury a loved one in your garden. The law is contained in the Burial Laws Amendment Act 1880. A person who knows the circumstances of the death and has a lawful certificate of the cause of death must first register a death with the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

It is then necessary to obtain consent from the local authority to enable the burial to take place."

So perhaps it might be worth checking with the local authority for the place where the person registering death was living at the time?

I've had a quick look at www.nafd.org.uk and www.bereavementadvice.org . These seem to suggest that the process is more controlled by restrictions - if you register a death (who registered his death?), then you can only make arrangements with burial grounds/crematoria once you get a "green card". Presumably there are also sanctions to prevent you from simply digging a hole in your garden for economy and the benefit of your plants!

Hi Philip,

- fascinating question. I know that a lot of care is taken over whether an individual is dead, and the cause of death - this is catered for by the death certificate (signed off by doctor/coroner). I'm not at all aware of formal procedures thereafter. The next of kin are supposed to have rights here - is it the case that the executor can override the wishes expressed in the will? However, there have been several cases where relatives have been distressed at how the remains were dealt with - for instance, if there is a road accident and there is a donor card found with the body, do the doctors still have to get next of kin permission to use the organs? I seem to remember being told that I should warn my relatives that I have signed a donor card (which I did). Then there are the cases such as still-born babies, where procedures have only recently been tightened up - the nurses would take it away so as not to distress the parents, and then pass the body to the pathology department for research.

Have you talked to the funeral directors about their responsibilities and the regulations governing their work? What did they have to say? Who do they report to, and where do they store their records? Is there a minimum retention period? Is there any legislation in this area?

Bren & California dreaming----Thanks for your input. I've had to look back at my original motives for the pursuit of this saga, and it is still the same. The fact--that officialdom have no idea of what became of my uncles remains----is what drives me. Whether there were family squabbles about how his remains were dealt with after the event, was a private matter for them, and quite right--I respect that entirely. If one of the many official departments --who get involved in these sad proceedings could put their hand up and say --'Yes, here he is listed, he was buried /or cremated at such and such a place, on this date, under these references , my job is done--closure. But when NO ONE, has any idea or can't make further suggestions, and records are mysteriously missing for the time in question-------?

Phillip when someone is cremated you are asked if you want the ashes or don't want the ashes .You are also asked do you want them putting in the memorial garden at the crematorium.
Sometimes the relatives have the ashes placed in a casket to keep them at home ,but also the funeral director can keep the ashes.,sometimes for years until relatives decide what they are going to do with them
Over the past few years up here in the north quite a lot of the small independent funeral directors have been taken over by larger national ones resulting in a poorer service and lack of local knowledge
This could be the case in regard to your uncle if the funeral directors has been taken over

Hi Philip, I'm rather hesitant to offer this,
However........... It was my experience when visiting family in England , the little granddaughter in the family asked me if I wolud like to see grandpa (my brother in-)law. When surprised ,I said yes, she proceeded to show me an urn kept behind the couch containing granpa's ashes.
Also another story comes to mind.....A friend of my husband's family ,when the widow found out AFTER his death that her husband had been supporting a mistress, she flushed his ashes down the toilet, although he had requested that his ashes be returned to England where he was born. We are in the USA ....So there you go !!!!

Just no telling where the body or ashes are. After all it is the survivors that decide.

Ann--I intend to check out the idea of a will--held at York last time I applied for one.
Janet--I've spoken to my local Coroners office,(i'm in the westcountry) and they were very surprised by all this mystery. they told me that the office involved (which is in the north) should have issued a burial/cremation order to the furneral directors chosen by the next of kin, and that a record of this, with traceable reference numbers, and the company involved, should be logged and held in their archive.--So, back to them I go.
Gwyn of kent---I will use your idea of contacting his church, with a view to placing a notice as you say, in their local church magazine, to jog memories.
Whisky & Soda--- The 'local ' paper only showed the basic details, who- when died, and family condolences in general terms in the obituary.
Looking at the correspondence again--from the record office, it states---'Our records for burial/cremation only go back to one month after he died and the funeral took place, and then there is an inexplicable gap ! ?
It IS possible that he was buried away from the place he was born and stayed in all his life, if thats the case I am in limbo.
Thanks to all for your suggestions, I'll now get going with them and report back--as they say. Cheers Philip.

The local Council and cremetoriums of the area,hold records for all cremations and burials which they have dealt with,.

nokin will be a good way to go,!

Have you tried the local paper for detail of the funeral?

Ann

The fact that the Church held a memorial service just after his death might mean that the funeral was delayed or elsewhere.
To hold a memorial service though one would have thought that they expected quite a few parishoners would want to attend.
I wonder if the church magazine would publish a brief notice asking anyone who remembered your uncle to contact you. Someone local might be able to tell you where he's buried.

Gwyn

I would definitely look to see if there was a will. If he was estranged from his family he may well have left his body to medical science and any money to charity just to annoy them. I think even when there is a catastrophic injury, medics could use various organs for research. (harvesting skin samples etc)

Ann and janet--thanks for the suggestions---The Coronars office arranged for me to have a full copy of the enquiry- who said what and when etc. the poor man was crushed to death, and he was 70 yrs old, so I doubt he was suitable for research. I don't want to reveal too much of the personal details because I have reason to suspect that there were possible frictions at work at the time, due to extended family claims, and this might be the root of the mystery. Despite him having a very large family, I've been unable to trace any of them, which of course would more than likely open up the whole mystery. I'm ONLY interested in solving this, and not the cause of it. All my mothers family, (except herself, who moved away and lost touch with them) are buried in the same cemetery--but where is my uncle?

Yes I have talked to several staff members there Cynthia, but they wrote back saying that I had set them a real poser, and did'nt have any further ideas. It occurred to me that even when family request that they keep the ashes after cremation, this act itself would still require a record of it--somewhere. One thing I had'nt thought of though is--what are the rules governing private burials on private land--or burial at sea etc? does anyone know of the rules and proceedures for this ? Thanks---Philip.

did he leave a will, i suppose he didn't leave his body to science? Although if it was a while after his death that may not have been feasible. He wouldn't have been taken to be buried in another town would he? maybe where he originated, or even another country (ireland, Scotland etc??)

Ann
Glos

Having tried ALL the known official departments and proceedures, I cannot discover what became of my Uncles remains. I have only learned of his death and the manner in which he met it this last 6 months or so, because of my family search efforts. He died as a result of an accident in work (declared dead on arrival at hospital) and there was a full enquiry into it several months later. The conclusion was that death was caused by accident, and a death certificate issued next day. I have copies of both death certificate and the full text of the fatal injury enquiry. His local church has a record of his memorial service which took place the Sunday after his death,but there are no burial facilities there and the warden gave me telephone number's of likely funeral directors and city morgues, but to no avail. The hospital has no records dating back to 1980, so although someone there must have sent the body somewhere for storage untill after the enquiry, they can't tell me anything. Obviously--the first port of call were ALL the known keepers of records for burials and cremation---the Catholic church and other denominations etc---The city departments----NONE of them could find a record of him.Surely it is law, that a record for the disposal of a deceased human being, be 'registerd 'or accounted for SOMEWHERE? After all, he had been the subject of a public enquiry lasting many months, and at considerable cost I'd have thought. Ive more or less been told to forget it--but I hate mysteries. This was 1980---not 1780. All offers of help appreciated--Philip.