Genealogy Chat

Hi to everyone.

Have got to the point where my direct ancestry goes back further than the census records and have found some 'probable' information on IGI and other sites. But how do I prove any of it?

My ancestor was born c1813. I've found a probable entry on IGI for a christening in 1812, same name, same birthplace, with mothers name. On the 1841 census, living next door to my ancestor, is a woman of the same name as on the IGI record, married to a man with the same forename and surname of my ancestor. Nothing else is remotely close so I assume these people are 'probably' mother, father and son.

On IGI, I've found a probable entry for the father (same name, year of birth within 3 years - hard to tell from the 1841 census - same birthplace) and this also lists *his* parents names and his siblings too. They were all born in the same Parish, as were my direct ancestors.

But where do I go from here? If I access the parish registers myself (I have never done that so son't know what's involved) what information can I glean from them and again, at what point can I say 'these are my ancestors' as opposed to 'these are probably my ancestors...'

Any help or guidance appreciated :-)

Kind regards - John

The fact that the father's name isn't on the IGI entry would tend to indicate that the child was illegitimate. The local records office may have Bastardy orders which would give the father.

The 1841 does not give relationships, so a man and a woman with the same surname in the same household might just as easily be brother and sister as man and wife.

Are the IGI records you have found extracted or submitted? If they are submitted, they may very well be wrong.

Why don't you post some names and places and see what others can find.

The record for the christening is extracted, the rest are submitted.

I know the links are tenuous are best. Unfortunately my ancestor married in 1833 (IGI) so I can't pull the marriage certificate, and neither was he living with his parents on the 1841 census. The ages are about right though for the people living next door, and I know it sounds crazy, but the forenames keep cropping up generation after generation. The assumed 'parents' had a son living with them (about 4 years apart from my ancestor) and his family and my family had virtually identical 'swapped' forenames, especially on the male side. They also worked in the same field, literally, as farmers and agricultural labourers, in a very small Hamlet. As did further generations, same trade, same district. I'm guessing the two were brothers, one got married and lived 'next door' as he was still working on the same farm. Exactly(!) the same thing happened 60 years later a couple of generations down the line!

But where's the proof I can find? Or isn't there any? Is it just a case of linking up the christenings and parents names, dates and places as best as possible and that's it?

Why don't you post the names,dates place and see if someone can help.
The IGI does not have too many deaths.sometimes it helps to know which of the children survived

It is just possible that the original parish record of the marriage may give a father's name - some do.

Are there any clues in the family he was living with in 1841?

Is there a woman with the same first name as the mother?

Many areas used naming patterns -the first son tended to be named after the father's father, so if there were three brothers, they would each give their first son the same name - very confusing!

A few options for you - post the names and dates on here and see if anyone can see links through the IGI or through a CD of parish records; subscribe (free) to the relevant county rootsweb mailing list, and post a question on it; join a family history society; google the county / town / parish to see if there are any parish records online; look at the topic to which I shall bring forward about parish records online; if you can, visit the records office for the area.

Happy hunting.

PS sorry - can't find the parish records online topic; I had it bookmarked, so maybe the site's glitch has it ...

Thanks to everyone for their help :-)

I can trace these lines from the 1841 census onwards, plus whatever I have regarding 'elderly' people on the censuses ie; pre-1841 births. But I need to see where the connection lies a generation or more further back, to see which if any of them were brothers. There are no 'clues' with people living at the same address, my ancestor was living with his wife and 2 very young sons on a farm, his 'probable' parents were living together with one son in a cottage on the same farmholding.

I checked the line of names and they don't historically follow a pattern as such, only once or twice do the first born sons names match those of the fathers father. There are an awful lot of James and Williams in there though!

I've recently joined the relevent family history society and awaiting some information from them. I can post some information on here, but I'm not 'stuck' as such, just trying to tie up information that I have a 'feeling' is right, but just can't prove yet :-)

Kind regards - John

I don't think one can ever be as comfortable with the tree pre-census - there's one less check on your work. I don't agree that "There are no 'clues' with people living at the same address", especially in an agricultural setting. Sometimes the OPRs give addresses, which can be very helpful for siblingship.
To take an example from my tree:
1797/08/05 William Anderson and Janet Reid in Ednie had a son born on the 2nd inst. and baptized this day called William. Witnesses John Mackie in Blackwater and George Anderson in Ednie. Vol. 3, P. 200. LDS Film 0991196.
1800/04/21 William Anderson and Janet Reid in Ednie had a son born this day and baptized 24th inst. and called George. Witnesses William Christie and George Anderson the one in Corhill the other in Ednie. Vol. 3, P. 207. LDS Film 0991196.
I think it's hard not to conclude William and George were brothers.

The OPRs sometimes also carry info on birth order:
Baptism: 16 Sep 1849 Christ Church, Adlington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Rimmer - son of William Rimmer & Anne
Abode: Coppul
Occupation: Servant
Notes: 5th son
Baptised by: Thos Carpenter Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1876, Page 41, Entry 324
Source: LDS Film 1526062

Baptism: 19 Apr 1863 All Saints, Adlington, Lancashire, England
Robert Rimmer - son of William Rimmer & Anne
Abode: Wigan
Occupation: Coachman
Notes: 6th son
Baptised by: Thos Carpenter Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1876, Page 142, Entry 1131
Source: LDS Film 1526062
[From http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Adlington/index.html ]

I think you've already taken the next step - joining the local FHS - and they can give you more info on accessing the relevant OPRs.

In 1855 Scotland, James + William accounted for 28% of male births, and neither was the most popular name.

I think I've heard it said before that "killing off" your ancestors can be very helpful - if two individuals of the same name and similar ages crop up in the burial registers, then you know that you will have problems. In a similar way, checking nearby parishes (as time allows) can be very useful.

There is a technique called family reconstruction which attempts to match up the baptisms, marriages and burials for a particular surname in an area - this was used some years ago to establish the typical age at marriage in 17th and 18th century parishes in Devon. I think it also identified quite a short gap between widowhood and remarriage in one particular parish.

If you can carry out such exercises with ease on your particular line, then the risk that you have the wrong ancestors is reduced - but we still have to bear in mind that there are lots of reasons why the records may be misleading.

Have you tried looking for wills?

Peter