Genealogy Chat

Nope - the copy is really bad to be honest and it is hard to make out but certainly says spinster.

There is a birth certificate for a Helen Flanigan in 1858 which I can assume at this point is her, born to Mary Flannigan at number 82 Grassmarket. The address given on Mary Jnr birth cert is number 90 Grassmarket so feasable they moved a door down or something.

Only problem I have in accepting this as her birth certificate is that I can't make out her date of birth. I think is says 28/01/1959 which would mean she got married 3 days before her 16th birthday although wedding cert does state age as 16.

I guess at the end of the day finding her actual birth cert is not so important now as I have found her grandparents through Mum's Birth certificate.

As for the mystery father - I think I will leave tracking that down to when I am a little bit more experianced!

Well Done

so was Mary listed as married before to McNamarra?

Yippeeee found it - and just in mins. Got Mary Jnr cert and year if marriage was actually 1863 not 1868 as I first read and so was able to just search with 1863 and surname - his name is recorded as Welm rather than William which is why I have had all the problems!!

Thanks again so so much - this had me up until 5am on sunday and now I can resume normal living lol!!!

oh and the birth cert states they were married in Edinburgh too!

well that took seconds - only one Bridget ramage ever lol!! Born 1868 September to William and Mary ramage who were married on 24/01/1863 according to the birth certificate so not only was Helen illegitimate but so would Mary Jnr have been - may try and find her birth cert too just to see what info that has.

Seems they moved from Edinburgh to Newhaven (ow part of Edinburgh) after Bridget's birth which would tie in with information on Helen's census entries.

Thanks again - sometimes with just a small piece of missing info it all slots into place!!

Oh ok - thanks again.

Have just fired up my credit on Scotland People and I am away to try and find Bridget and Mary Jnr now - fingers crossed!!

Hi Rachael

The census was on Ancestry.

I couldn't find a birth for Helen on Scotlandspeople but there are possible entries for Bridget & Mary Jnr.

Just re-read this after my glee of excitement - I am pretty sure this is her -99.99% - too much of a coincidence that her Mum is Mary Ramage and the dad William Ramage - his death cert states his wife was Mary Ramage, Nee Flannigan.

So finally found her - will get on the case with the younger siblings but as for her Real father - well that may well be a needle in a haystack!!

Thanks again

Oh wow you seem to have found the 1871 entry I paid for but didn't appear (it was the wrong page! )

The one from 1881 is 100% her, the 1871 I think may be her but on the 1881 census it states she was born in Edinburgh and her marriage cert from 1875 states she was the daughter of Thomas Macnamarra and Mary Macnamarra now Ramage nee Flannigan.

I assumed from that that her Mum Mary had later married William Ramage. It may be that Helen then took on William's surname as the only thing I have got so far that implies she was in fact illigetimate is her husband's death cert from 1913 which states his wife was Helen Macnamarra (Illegitimate).

Oh I am so happy you found that - thank you so so much - where did you find it? Like i said the entry on ScotlandsPeople was incorrect and only covered half of Butlers Land - not her house though.

Now I can go and look up Bridget's Birth certificate and see what marriage info it brings up for Mary and William.

Thanks again - your a superstar!!

1881 Scotland Census
about Helen Prior
Name: Helen Prior
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : James
Gender: Female
Where born: Edin
Registration Number: 692/1
Registration district: Leith North
Civil Parish: Leith North
Town: Leith
County: Midlothian
Address: Butlers Close
ED: 18
Household schedule number: 132
Line: 15
Roll: cssct1881_297
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Prior 1
Helen Prior 22
James Prior 30
Mary A Prior 4


1871 Scotland Census
about Helen Ramage
Name: Helen Ramage
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: Wm
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Edinburgh
Registration Number: 692/1
Registration district: Leith North
Civil Parish: Leith North
County: Midlothian
Address: 5 Butlars Land
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 18
Household schedule number: 126
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1871_168
Household Members: Name Age
Bridget Ramage 12 Mo
Helen Ramage 13
Mary Ramage 38
Mary Ramage 8
Wm Ramage 38


Wm & Mary are both born Ireland. Is it possible they married in Ireland and Helen was born there too?

Thanks - I did wonder about contacting them to point out the error as there is certainly no Ramages listed on the page they have brought up for her. But it is the same street name.

I spoke to my Granny about it today and she is sure that she used the name Ramage so it seems likely that is what she went by. Her Granny had told her about her - didn't mention she was illegitimate - however it was my Gran's Gran that registered the death so she obvioulsly wanted to keep that little snippet a secret!

Thanks again - will try contacting them

I have become very stuck trying to get past one of my ancestor and here I am at 4am on Saturday having spent silly money on Scotlandpeople and just a little bit the wiser and wondered if anyone knew of any other sites that may be able to help or some other approach I could try.


Ancestor is Helen Macnamarra cited as aged 16 on her marriage to James Prior on the 25/01/1875 in Edinburgh. On the cert she states her parents are Thomas Macnamarra and Mary Macnamarra (now Ramage) nee Flannigan.

This is where the confusion comes in! No record of any marriage of a Thomas Macnamarra and Mary Flannigan.

I have found what I think is Mary Flannigan's death cert and it states she was the widow of William Ramage but I cannot find a marriage cert for them either. I assume from the marriage cert and then her mothers death cert that her mother married or re-married after Helen's birth.

On Helen Prior/Macnamarra's husband's death cert it states his wife was illegitimate so may have been Flannigan at birth! However she was supposidly born in Newhaven in Leith, however there is no record of Helen Flannigan there or anywhere else that matches up age wise. There is also no Helen Macnamarra on the East Coast of Scotland. I did then wonder if she used Ramage in later years if her mother married a Ramage but what should be the 1861 insert for a Helen Ramage in Newhaven (on the same street she lived on twenty years later with her family so likley to be her) does not list her - it seems they have made a mistake on the technical side and even though the search matched for a Helen Ramage there are no Ramages listed on the actual page I got after payment.


So I am stuck with Helen Prior (nee Macnamarra, Ramage, Flannigan...take your pick!!) aged 16 on the 25/01/1875 who may or may not have been illegitimate and has used an array of names!!

Sorry this is so long winded but please any tips are much much appreciated.