Genealogy Chat

I have found this entry from the Sussex Record Society, but I'm not sure what it means..........

Poor Law Record
Reference Number: Par/86/32/1
Parish: Fittleworth
Order type: Settlement certificate
Date: 28 Jul 1777
Foreign Parish Stopham
Subject James HAMSHIRE married

Spouse Phebe HAMSHIRE


Phoebe & James Hampshire are my ancestors, James was baptised and married in Fittleworth (West Sessex). I really don't want to guess at what was going on in July 1777; it would be easy to assume that they had no luck at finding permanant housing in Stopham to called on the Poor Law in Jame's home village for help. But I really don't know.

I've been puzzling over this for a couple of weeks now and cannot find anyone locally with sufficient knowledge to enlighten me, so I thought I would consult the oracle here.

All help, ideas, thoughts will be warmly received.

Ann

Hi There,
I typed poor law into google and came up with this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Law
Hope its of some use to you

Thanks,

I'll try that one in a little while. My teenagers are about to take my computer over again so I'll be off-line for a while.

You'd think they would let me stay on for a bit longer, but, once again, their need to go on facebook exceeds my desire to descover something about my family histotry.

Ann X

Well the Poor Law made the local parish responsible for Parish Relief when families fell on hard times.They would question the person asking for help to ascertain if the Parish was responsible for them ie they were born in the Parish. If it was shown that the claimant wasnt born in the Parish they would issue a warrant charging them back to the Parish they were born in.
I have a Poor Law decree for one of mine whose husband deserted her and she was shown to have been born Wimbledon and the Parish issued a warrant charging her back to Wimbledon even tho they lived East London.This was 1780.s

Normally on that site they give you more details ?

Ah, the Hamshire lot - I see you took my advice re the Sussex Poor Law site - brilliant isnt it.

The entry you have given is that this couple is moving from one parish - ie Fittleworth to another parish, i.e. Stopham probably for work. Their first parish, Fittleworth would have to give them a certificate to say that if they became a burden on the new parish Fittleworth would take them on as their responsibility i.e. parish aid.

It used to be the responsibility of the parish where the father had come from to maintain destitute families. If the family lived in another parish and became destitute, the local parish could serve them with a Removal Order compelling them to move back to their home parish. Even if the family had lived elsewhere for many years and no longer had connections with the fathers home parish, they could still be compelled to move. It was a form of internal exile.

Although these laws were abolished when workhouses came into being, the fear of being removed lingered on for many years. This is why people often told census enumerators they were born in the parish where they currently resided and not where they were actually born.

Michael

Hi Guys,

Thanks to all of you for your input.

Heather, your explanation is crystal clear, I think that they must have made a go of it in Stopham as there seems to be a little 'Hampshire' population explotion in Stopham not long after that time, so chances are, this tiny piece of information could lead to an expansion of my tree. I had been on the Sessex website many times and picked out several Poor Law references to members of the Hampshire family. Trick was, knowing where to start to understand what was going on.

Mick, you have probably answered what was likely to be my next question - What's a Removal Order? - Loads of the Hampshires were 'removed' I know why now! They looked like they were going to be a burden on their adopted parishes so sent back to whence they came - tell me I got that right..........

I really appreciate this help; I can see that I will have to get myself an idiot's guide to the Poor Law!

Many thanks, and a Happy New Year to you all.

Ann X

OH NO - I've got that wrong! They didn't make a go of it in Stpham as the first of their children was born in 1778 back in Fittleworth! In fact, all eight of their children were baptised in Fittleworth.

Hey Ho

At least James Hampshire was good at something!


Ann

The removal order is exactly as you thought, the parish wanted them to be returned to their previous parish. You can sometimes find details of the examinations of these - check the Sussex site again or have a go at googling the names and see if anything comes up. Have you tried National Archives online?

Evening Heather

I have looked at the National Achives Site but soon managed to get hopelessly lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I've got the bit right about the removal order - sending people back to their parish of origin so they didn't become a burden to the new parish - I get that, that even sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

The bit I don't get is this, Is the settlement certificate saying 'Welcome to Fittleworth but pay your way or you go back to Stpoham' or 'Welcome to Stopham but pay your way or you go back to Fittleworth'?

Head hurting now.

Ann

OK, I've found it...

Legal settlement was the overlying principle of poor relief, the qualifications for which were as follows :-

To be born in a parish of legally settled parent(s)

Up to 1662 by living there for 3 years . After 1662 you could be thrown out within 40 days and after 1691 you had to give 40 days notice before moving in.

Renting property worth more than £10 per annum in the parish or paying taxes on such a property.

Holding a Parish Office.

Being hired by a legally settled inhabitant for a continuous period of 365 days. (most single labourers were hired from the end of Michaelmas week till the beginning of the next Michaelmas so avoiding the grant of legal settlement). By the time you were married, had proved your worth and gained experience then longer hirings were possible therefore changing legal settlement.

Having served a full apprenticeship to a legally settled man for the full 7 years.

Having previously been granted poor relief. This condition implied that you had previously been accepted as being legally settled and was usually only referred to in settlement examinations.

Females changed their legal settlement on marriage, adopting their husbands legal place of settlement. ( If a girl married a certificate man in her own parish and he died, she would automatically be removed to his place of legal settlement along with any issue from the marriage).

If you could not satisfy these requirements you could move into a new parish using a settlement certificate providing your home parish would issue one. This was virtually a form of indemnity issued by your home parish stating that you and your family and future issue belonged to them and they would take you all back at their expense if you became chargeable to the parish. Because of the expense of removal it would be unlikely your home parish would issue a certificate for a parish a large distance away. A settlement certificate was only valid if it bore the seals of the overseers of both parishes and that of the local Justices and was not transferable.

Removal
If you or your family became or threatened to become reliant on parish relief and you could not satisfy the strict guidelines for legal settlement then you were liable to be removed to the place of your last legal settlement. If you were a certificate man the you would be carted back to your old parish at their expense but if no settlement certificate was in force then a removal order was applied for from the local Justices of the Peace. This would usually involve an Examination as to Settlement carried out before the local justice, overseers and another ratepayer in order to ascertain your place of last legal settlement . In tenuous cases others may have to be examined also, parents, grandparents and siblings, these examinations could run into many pages virtually the life story of the individuals family.

what a brill piece of info on poor law, I have bookmarked this for future reference

hope you don't mind

x

I don't mind at all. I have just copied and pasted it from part of a page, web address as follows


http://www.mdlp.co.uk/resources/general/poor_law.htm


The whole thing is in plain English, I'll send the link to your PM

Ive book marked this too,as it seems to be written so we can understand it.
Like the laws today,it isnt paticuarly straight forward

I tell you what I found interesting here in Norfolk. I found evidence of one parish paying men in another wealthier parish to marry poor women of their own, thus getting rid of their burden. Amazing stuff. In the end the wealthier parish stopped this practice - especially as it appeared the men tended to abandon the new wives once they arrived :)

There is a print which shows the lengths a parish would go to to ensure an individual did not become chargeable to that parish. It depicts the local overseers pushing women in labour across the parish boundary in the middle of the night in the hope that the babies would not be charged to their parish. I think it was done by Hogarth but can't find it online at the mo.

Thank you norfolkdumpling and Mick in the Sticks for your interesting information.I will bookmark it for future reference.

Happy New Year everyone!!

Margot. xx