Genealogy Chat

Carol

you are very welcome!


this is an intriguing hobby, sometimes frustrating, but so very satisfying when you break down a brick wall!!



sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

You have really opened my eyes!!! We are so age orientated that I never thought about the reasons why there is so many age variances between various documents in my research.

Thank you for taking the time to help me. I can see the detective work is going to get harder!!!

I have a lot of Irish relatives to trace and no doubt that will be even harder as the records are scarce. Still it is all so much fun and so addictive.

Fond regards

Carol

Hi Carol

English censuses have some peculiarities, but then I think most countries do!!

a) you have to remember that most of our ancestors were illiterate, and that the enumerators on the earlier ones were probably only a little more literate. This means that they often did not know how to spell their names, and couldn't check whether the enumerator had written it down correctly anyway.

b) many of them didn't really know when they, their partners or children were born .............. ages were not important in those days.

c) the age that you see on the census and its transcript is an approximation, and can be as much as 2 years out, upto 4 years on the 1841. The census itself asked for a person's age on census night ....... depending on when the census was taken and the person's birthday, this results in the first "error". Then the transcribers had to change this age in years into an actual year of birth ........ hence we all tend to use "born ca. 1880" unless we have the actual birth certificate. We search on the various records using birth year +/- 5 years.

d) the modern-day transcribers may have great difficulty reading the original handwriting ..... and they HAVE to put down what they can read not what they think it should be. Thus Elliott became Ellick on the 1841 because that is what the transciber thought. I could tell it was Elliott, but the transcriber obviously had problems. I "lost" my grandfather on one census ............... it turned out to have been transcribed as Silufield not Schofield! It took me months to find the family. The commoner your family's fore- and sur-name(s), the harder it can be to find mis-transcribed ones. Transcription is not helped if the story that the work was outsourced to a foreign country is true!!

One quite funny mis-transcription involves Somerset. Some enumerators used a shorthand version for the county name in birthplace ......... "Somt" where the "t" was superscript. The transcriber(s) read that t as an l .............. now there are an unknown number of people born in SOMALIA according to the transcript of their records! I just tested this on ancestry, and came up with the following entries for people shown as born in Somalia:-

26 1861 England Census ....... the first on the list is shown as born "Somalia, Churchill, England"!!!!
1 1851 Scotland Census
6 1861 Wales Census


e) birthplaces may differ from census to census, or from certificates etc. Someone may not remember where he/she was actually born, may have moved soon after birth to another place and believed that was his birthplace. Or it may have been that the enumerator didn't know the birth place stated ....... imagine the following conversation:- "I was born in Goodrich", enumerator, "where's that then?", "near Ipswich". Ipswich was then entered as birthplace 'cos the enumerator had heard of it. OR someone from Cornwall with a thick dialect moving to Lancashire where there is also a thick, but different, accent. English accents could be very different in villages 5 miles or less apart.


You really have to think outside the box when trying to find ancestors.

Ann/Anne/Annie can also be Hannah, or vice versa

Helen/Hellen can be Ellen



always keep an open mind is the only advice I can give you!!




I live in Vancouver ....... and have been to OZ several times as we have fmaily and friends down there. We spent a year in Melbourne in the mid-70s.



Good Luck



sylvia

Hi Sylvia,

Thank you so much for all your info and especially explanations. I so owe Rose an apology!!! I haven't had any experience of the English census and because Joseph's age differed so much to the info I had thought it must be someone different. Also didn't realise Elliot could have been transcribed as Ellick. No doubt I'll get smarter

I am blown away by the generosity of the people in Genes.

I have wonderful memories of Canada. Spent Christmas 2000 there. UNBELIEVABLE!!

Thanks again

fond regards

Carol

These family trees are on ancestry ... they are public member trees, but I think you have to be a member of ancestry in order to send a message to the owners. But it does look like your family!!




Harry & Hirst Tree
Public Member Tree
1 attached record, 2 sources
Preview
Name: Matilda Vigar
Birth: 1817 - Somerset, England
1 attached record, 2 sources

Matilda Vigar Joseph Elliott George Vigar Ann Sweet

Matilda Vigar
Birth: 1817 - Somerset, England
Spouse: Joseph Elliott F: George Vigar M: Ann Sweet


Vigar Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Matilda Vigar
Birth: 1817 - Somerset
Spouse: Joseph Elliot F: George Vigar M: Ann Sweet


Rowe Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Matilda Vigar
Birth: 1817 - Somerset, England
F: George Vigar M: Ann Sweet



There is also this Ancestry World tree



Vigar, Matilda ABT 1817 Chilthorne Domer, Somerset, England F: George Vigar M: Ann Sweet
S: Joseph Elliott




I suggest you go to www.rootsweb.com, and see if there is a tree on there. It's a free site, but connected to ancestry, and world trees are sometimes found on both sites.




sylvia

This is probably James' birth registration, from www.freebmd.org.uk .......... which has registrations from the beginning on July 1 1837 to (currently) about 1935.


If you do not have his birth certiifcate (or that of one of the other children), you should consider buying it .... it will tell you Matilda's surname for certain.

Births Mar 1839 (>99%)

Elliott James Yeovil 10 545



To order a certificate go to www.gro.gov.uk, click on Ordering Certiifcates Online, and follow instructions. they will ask if you have the GRO reference number ... that's the set of 2 numbers after Yeovil, so answer YES


Each certificate will cost £7 ................ never ever pay any more than that!




sylvia

Is this the information on which you are basing the surname of Matilda and the marriage place??


JOSEPH ELLIOTT Pedigree
Male Family

Event(s):

Marriages:
Spouse: MATILDA VIGAR Family
Marriage: 04 APR 1836 Chilthorne Domer, Somerset, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The form lists the submitter's name and address and may include source information. The address may be outdated. Details vary. To find the form, you must know the batch and sheet number.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Batch Number: 7421704
Sheet: 13
Source Call No.: 0935107 Type: Film



This is from the International Genealogical Index on www.familysearch.org

............... but note that it is a SUBMITTED record. It has been sent in by a church member, and there is no backup documentation. It may not be accurate!! You should take it under advisement only, until and unless you can find documentation such as a parish record.




sylvia

Sorry, Carol

I don't see why you think these two records are different. One person has given you more information in one way, and the other has given you more information about soemthing else. BUT it is the same family! I've added information from the actual census image to the first record, the one found by Rose.

1851 England Census
about Joseph Elliott
Name: Joseph Elliott
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Matilda
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Yeovil
Ecclesiastical parish: Pitney and Marsh
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Martock
ED, institution, or vessel: 5h
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 61
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Elliott 45 <<<< Farm Labourer
Matilda Elliott 35 <<<< Glover
James Elliott 12 <<<< Labourer
Elizabeth Elliott 9 <<< Glover
George Elliott 6
Robert Elliott 4

Address:- Goodfords Folly, Yeovil


The information given to me by another member from the 1851 states:

Name; James Elliot
Age: 12
Est year of birth:1839
Relationship to head: son
Occupation: Labourer
Address: Goodfords Folly
district: Yeovil, Martock
admin county:Somerset
Birth Place : Yeovil
Birth county: Somerset

Joseph Elliott head 35 farm labourer
Matilda 35 wife
James 12
Elizabeth 9
George 6
Robert 4

All born Yeovil



All it is is that the two people chose two different ways to present the information to you!


Also the 1841 Census, I've added information for you from the actual image


1841 Census

Name: Joseph Ellick <<<<<<< Elliott on the image
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Tintinhull
Hundred: Tintinhull
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Martock

Joseph Ellick 30 Farmer
Matilda Ellick 25
James Ellick 2

No address given. All born in county


Note that the 1841 Census only tells you whether people are born in or out of county, that no relationships are stated, and that ages for adults over the age of 15 are lowered to the nearest 5.




sylvia

A big thankyou to "Mick in the sticks" and "Maryjane-Sue" for the web site info. Most helpful.

regards

carol from Oz

Hi Jim,

Thanks for responding. I'm a novice when it comes to the english census'.

The information given to me by another member from the 1851 states:

Name; James Elliot
Age: 12
Est year of birth:1839
Relationship to head: son
Occupation: Labourer
Address: Goodfords Folly
district: Yeovil, Martock
admin county:Somerset
Birth Place : Yeovil
Birth county: Somerset

Joseph Elliott head 35 farm labourer
Matilda 35 wife
James 12
Elizabeth 9
George 6
Robert 4

All born Yeovil

I presumed that because the above info which certainly fits with what I know of my Elliots/Elliotts differed from Rose's, they were the wrong family. Also my Matilda was a Vigar.

Now I'm so confused. A great big thanks to you and Rose anyway for being so helpful. The info re travel to Australia is helpful also. Sadly Joseph drowned about a month after they arrived here.

Fond regards

Carol from OZ

You may find this web site helpful - it has PR transcriptions for Tintinhull and Martock, you need to register but it is free.....

http://www.genealogyhelp.co.uk/transcriptions/index.php

More details about Goodfords Folly can be found here.

http://webapp1.somerset.gov.uk/her/details.asp?prn=56187

Thanks so much Rose but this is not my family. My Joseph is Elliot. I have found him on the 1851 census but not on 1841.

Regards

Carol

1841 England Census
about Matilda Ellick
Name: Matilda Ellick
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Gender: Female
Where born: Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Tintinhull
Hundred: Tintinhull
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Martock
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Ellick 30
Matilda Ellick 25
James Ellick 2

Rose

Is it Elliott with 2 Ts?

1851 England Census
about Joseph Elliott
Name: Joseph Elliott
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Matilda
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Yeovil
Ecclesiastical parish: Pitney and Marsh
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Martock
ED, institution, or vessel: 5h
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 61
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Elliott 45
Matilda Elliott 35
James Elliott 12
Elizabeth Elliott 9
George Elliott 6
Robert Elliott 4

Rose

Thanks to a kind member of Genes, I have details from 1851 census showing my gggg grandfather, Joseph Elliot and his family as living at Goodfords Folly, Martock, Yeovil. Can anyone tell me if Goodfords Folly is a street name, a property or an area? Would also be interested in any information regarding this family. It appears Joseph was born in Odcombe, married in Chilthorne Domer and his children's births are registered as Tintinhull. Many thanks Carol from OZ