Genealogy Chat

Thank you Sylvia, I have looked at the marriages of the listed Thomas Herbert s to see which Mary or better still Mary Anne would be a good match.

Mary Berry Born around 1799 looks a good bet except that this Mary was born in a place called Ashburton Devon and Mary Herbert nee??????
according to the Census was born in Devon Port same county but much further inland. However we do not know how accurate the information was given to the enumerators, looking at the Pedigree Chart her father was John and her mother Mary Molly nee Hill I think I read somewhere that Molly's are ususally Mary Anne's, it looks promising, none of the children on the Census were called John but there could be several resasons for that.

I think it is a modern thing to be accurate about ages as we now need
to prove everything, we have many forms of ID. Our ancestors had no forms of ID had very large families I can picture the enumerator at the door
wanting information about ages of the children ,the parents apart from maybe the "baby" and the oldest child probably made rough guesses concerning the ages of their children, and the women I should imagine were creative with their ages.

I might well have to order a birth Cert for the youngest child to be certain of Mary's maiden name, and hope I get the correct Thomas Herbert born around 1839.

Thanks every one once again for your patience and help as parish records are a new phenomenon for me and it's all a learning curve, every thing is easy and straight forward once you know how to do it.


Anita

This is Mary in 1841 ... with a number of children, which you may be able to connect with those christening records on the I G I on familysearch.

The ages of aduts over the age of 15 on the 1841 are actually upto 4 years wrong ........ most of them were altered by the enumerator to the closest 5 below the actual age.

1841 Census

Name: Mary Herbert
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: St Clement Danes
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Clement Danes

Mary Herbert 40 Shoe Closer
Ann Herbert 20 Female Servant
William Herbert 15 Printer Apprentice
Elizabeth Herbert 13
James Herbert 11
Sarah Herbert 7
Isabella Herbert 5
Thomas Herbert 3



Using this information, you could search on www.freebmd.org. uk for one of the children to see if you can find a marriage in the 1840s or 1850s, but that certificate and hope that father's name is on there. That will CONFIRM that Thomas Herbert was the name of your ancestor.


You could look to see if you can find the parish records for the relevant area and see if there are any other Thomas Herbert's married to a Mary Ann(e)





sylvia

There is no way of proving this, as the only child who could have been registered is Thomas born ca 1838 ... which could be 1837 to 1839!


You have to look at aparish records to find the other births and a possible marriage.

The easiest one to look at is the Internatioanl Genalogical Index on www.fmailysearch.org ...... the Mormon site. I told you about this in an earlier posting.

Go to the home page, click on Advanced Search, then click on International Genealogicla Index.

Enter Thomas Herbert in father's name box, enter Mary in mother's forename

Click on Birth/Christneing 1830 +/- 10 years

Click on British Isles, England, London Greater.

It brings up a listing of about 19 children born to parents called Thomas Herbert and Mary/Mary Ann. I think the oens that eprtain to your possible people are at the bottom of that listing ............... there are several christened at St Andrew Holborn ......... Richard found James Thoams for you earlier.


If you then go back to the I G I search age, and put
Thomas Herbert in the main search box,

Mary in forename of spouse,

click on Marriage 1820 +/- 10 years

British Isles, England, Greater London


then you get a list of 4 Thomas Herberts married to a Mary/Mary Anne in the period.


Number 3 is this one, the only one that shows Mary Ann ............ and this MAY be yours


THOMAS HERBERT Pedigree
Male Family

-----
Marriages:
Spouse: MARY ANN BERRY Family
Marriage: 12 JUL 1818 Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, London, London, England

-----
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
M001341 1542 - 1753 942 B4HA V.21 Book 6903501 Film
M001341 1804 - 1813 0417985 Film NONE
M001341 1814 - 1818 0417986 Film NONE
M001341 1819 - 1824 0417987 Film NONE
M001341 1825 - 1828 0417988 Film NONE
M001341 1829 - 1830 0417989 Film NONE
M001341 1831 - 1836 0417990 Film NONE
M001341 1837 - 1843 0417980 Film NONE
M001341 1843 - 1848 0417981 Film NONE
M001341 1849 - 1863 0417982 Film NONE
M001341 1863 - 1880 0417983 Film NONE



sylvia

I am still not sure how to go about Looking for the mariage of Mary anne ???? and Thomas Herbert as I do not have a maiden name for Mary Ann and this marriage was well before Civil Registration any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks Maggie for your reply concerning marriage customs.


Anita

It was the custom to marry in the bride's parish, but that didn't always happen.

Maggie

Many thanks to every one who replied, I now have the first name of my many times Gt Gt Gt grandfather, but how can I find the Maiden name of Mary Ann Herbert? as this wedding took place well before Civil Records, and I don't know where they were married, and was it the custom of the time to marry at the Bride's Church or the Grooms?


Anita

?????


from the International Genealogical Index on www.familysearch.org .............. a free site, run by the Mormon church. It is an extracted record, meaning that it has been taken from the actual parish records, and the parents match those on the record found by Richard.


ISABELLA HERBERT Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth: 25 MAY 1836

Christening: 19 JUN 1836 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London, England

Parents:
Father: THOMAS HERBERT Family
Mother: MARY ANN

--------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

--------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C020694 1733 - 1735 0585445 Film 6903658 Film
C020694 1822 - 1875 0585444 Film NONE
C020694 1829 - 1841 0585443 Film NONE



sylvia

For reference purposes .... is this Mary Herbert on the 1851??


1851 Census

Name: Mary Ann Herbert
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1799
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Devonport

Civil Parish: Liberty of The Rolls
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Clement Danes

Mary Ann Herbert 52 Widow, Laundress
James T Herbert 21 b.ca 1830, St Dunstans West, London, Law Stationer
Isabella Herbert 14 b.ca 1837, St Dunstan's West, Scholar
Thomas Herbert 13 b.ca 1838, St Dunstan's West, Scholar

Address: 14 Whites Alley



Interesting ...... there are actually TWO entries for her!! There are some minor differences between the two entries.

1851 Census (entry No. 2)

Name: Mary Ann Herbert
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1799
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Devonport

Civil Parish: Liberty of The Rolls
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Clement Danes

Mary Ann Herbert 52 Widow, Laundress
James Thos Herbert 21 b.ca 1830, St Dunstan's in the West, Law Writer
Thos Herbert 13 b.ca 1838, St Dunstan's in the West, Scholar
Isabella Herbert 14 b.ca 1837, St Dunsana's in the West, (no occupation given)

Address:- 14 Little White Alley



sylvia

???????????



JAMES THOMAS HERBERT Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
30 NOV 1829
Christening:
04 JUL 1830 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: THOMAS HERBERT Family
Mother: MARY ANN

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

richard

I have found Mary Herbert on the 1841 Census living at Little Whites Alley Civil Parish St Clement Danes London aged 40 occ a Shoe Closer. My problem is by 1841 she was already a widow I know from the next Census she was born in Devonport
but I want to find details of her marriage but how can I find her maiden name? In 1851 they were still living in Little Whites Alley
but why can't I find any Baptisim records for the children all born
in the same area St Dunstan's West. Any help would be appreciated on the 1851 Census she was Mary ann her oldest child was 21 and the youngest was 13.

Anita