Genealogy Chat

Just received this pm from Joanne.

New message to Julie

From Joanne
thanks for your reply. It says formerly Harvey and I think i have found a marriage certificate for an Elizabeth Harvey and a Henry William Barnard in Deptford (the right area) in 1897.

Jo

And now I have a PM from Joanne! Joanne - it makes us crazy doing it that way -- toggling back and forth between inbox and threads. click the purple Reply button up at the top of the page and you can add a message in this thread, so we don't have to do that, and evrybody can see.




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Joanne New message from Joanne 20/06/2009 21:51:50

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New message to Janey

From Joanne
Thank you for your reply, very interesting. Who are you looking for on your Barnard side of the family?

I have looked at the records for the Annie you cite but she is not living with her supposed sisters and brothers on the 1911 census. We have also got the birth certificate for Mary and this looks like she is a sister of Annie as the mothers maiden name is Harvey. I have a marriage certificate for Elizabeth Harvey and a Henry William Barnard (obviously sometimes people used their middle name) married in Deptford in 1897.

Please let me know what you are searching for and happy to help if I can.

thanks



I confess it was just a big of an idle moment for me, looking around for any recent Barnard posts. ;) Mine went missing in Wiltshire sometime around 1800, appears to have had a child (my grx2 grandfather) around 1820 in Bristol (no marriage or baptism record ever found yet) ... and showed up in Scotland getting married and then in the 1841 census, before spending the next two censuses back in the workhouse in Wiltshire and dying there in 1869. Not related, I'm sure, but I keep a weather eye out for Barnards all the same!

If you give the names of the sisters born before 1911 -- have you found them in that census at all?

Do you know whether your grandmother Annie was reared with two parents / with her siblings?

Always glad to try to help out a fellow Barnard descendant, related or not. ;)

On my great grandmothers birth cert. in l858, her mother is given as "formerly - maiden name" although she did not marry her "husband" until a few years later - just in time for the l86l census!
Liz

Just wanted to mention, Joanne has messaged me - I will let her know there are some new details on here.

I wonder whether Joanne will return. I'm just trawling for Barnards, one of my mystery ancestors being one. ;)

The 1911 census certainly seems to be the necessary bit of info to start with here.


Births Sep 1905
BARNARD Annie Woolwich 1d 1270


George wasn't born in Woolwich, and we don't know the sisters' names, so it's a little hard to search the 1911 without some more info. I haven't had any luck identifying an Annie living with a George and Elizabeth, though.

I don't see a marriage for William Barnard + Elizabeth Harvey.

Might this be another child?

Births Dec 1913
Barnard Mary M (Harvey) Woolwich 1d 2183

On George's birth certificate what does it say under the Mother column,
Does it say" Mother" Bernard formerly" and then another surname ?
That may be a bit of a clue to finding a marriage.

The 1911 census might not help in this case.

One of my lot were together for 40 years or so - they listed all their children - including the ones who had died and those who had married - on the 1911 census. They left a gap for number of years married and the enumerator has completed this based on the age of the eldest child. It's in a different coloured ink and different handwriting.

I don't think they ever married as have still not managed to find the marriage cert.

If you find them on the 1911 be sure to get the copy of the original page, not the transcript, as you will spot any alterations made by the enumerator.

Jill

Have you found them on the 1911 census? What is Elizabeth's marital status shown as on there? (married/widowed/single). And, of course, is there a William with them at that time?

That's a strange one! Normally no father's name is a pretty good indicator that the baby was illegitimate but with you mentioning that the brother George has a father's name listed, I'm very puzzled! (Unless the mother happened to come across a strict looking registrar when she went to register the birth and something about them made her decide to invent a husband?)

It's very possible that Annie could have made up a father when she married to look more respectable in front of her new in-laws.

One other possibility - the mother was never married to William but lived with him as his common-law wife and he fathered the children. I think it has always been the case that, where a couple are unmarried, the father can only be named on the certificate if he is present at the registration - maybe it never occurred to the mother to pretend she was married. Perhaps William only attended the registration of one of the births? (Is he ever named as the informant or is it always the mother?)

Hoping someone can give some advice. My grandmother Annie Pearson (nee Barnard) born 1905 in Woolwich has no fathers name on her birth certificate neither do her 3 sisters who were born before (1903) and after (1908, 1910) her but her brother George Barnard, born in 1906 has a fathers name of Willliam Barnard on his birth certificate. On Annie's marriage certificate her fathers name is recorded as William Barnard - does anyone know why the father's name is not on her birth certificate but would be on her marriage certificate? Her mother Elizabeth is recorded as Barnard (nee Harvey) and I think I have found a marriage certificate for her and William prior to 1905. Many thanks