Genealogy Chat

I have been searching for my GGrandfather's BMD's for nearly 10 years. His wife and mother of his children was Mary GLANVILLE born 1854 in Saltash, Cornwall. I have her B & D certs and those of their children, most were born in Saltash, Cornwall. Mary GLANVILLE was the base child of Ann GLANVILLE b. 1832 in Saltash, Cornwall. Ann GLANVILLE married John HOSKINGS in 1856 at the Plymouth Church,Devon, he was born in Saltash, Cornwall occ: Fisherman. I mention this because on some of JOHN Walter & Mary SHIRLEY's children's birth certs, Mary's maiden name varies between GLANVILLE & HOSKINGS. as she was aged 2yrs when her mother married. So, I have searched all marriage entries with these two names for the marriage from 1870 - 1895 which was the year that Mary SHIRLEY died aged 41 yrs. There is no record of the marriage at the Saltash Record Office or Museum. I do have an Army Service Record for John W SHIRLEY and his service number stays the same throughout but there is an occasional name change in them from John SHIRLEY to William?? JWS joined T.S Simeon at Kingston, Canada in 1868 from where?? So I presume he was aged approx 15 yrs old when he joined making his birth year approx 1850 - 1855 which are the years I searched first. Then he was posted in Gibralta, Malta etc, before being posted at Sandown Fort, IOW then Tregantle Fort and Bull Point, Cornwall & Devon. The record does not contain any personal info about him whatsoever regarding parents names, birth year or place nor build, hair colour etc, etc. except for the year of 1868 when he joined T.S. Simeon through to his posts in the IOW, Devon & Cornwall, his promotions upto Corporal and various jobs within the Army.
His 8 children , so far found, Lucy SHIRLEY in 1876- Saltash/ Henry James SHIRLEY in 1879- on IOW / Ethel Mary SHIRLEY in 1880- Saltash / Alberta Ann SHIRLEY in 1882 - Saltash / John Edward SHIRLEY in 1884 - Brentford, Chiswick ) Alfred George SHIRLEY in 1889 - Saltash / Robert John SHIRLEY in 1891 - Saltash ( my Grandfather & aka John Robert ) & Sylvia Evelyn Mary SHIRLEY in 1893 - Saltash. At Brentford in 1884 at the Christening of son John Edward SHIRLEY the parents had their 4th child Alberta Ann born 1882, Christened too. Both parents were at Christening. In 1884 John Walter SHIRLEY's occ: at this time was now, Journeyman Labourer, as yet, I have not found him on any UK Census and have looked on the old 1837online site and since it's name was changed, from 1837 - 1920 for every month & quarter for JWS Birth, Marriage & Death. I have searched 1841 - 1911 Censi for Cornwall/Devon/IOW and NO recognisable one has been found in this time. I do not believe that JWS was anything other than English, but maybe he could have been Canadian and liked the UK so stayed? Who knows, I wish I did. I am completely stuck now so, please can anyone offer me some hope of finding him? One other thing, on my Granddad Robert John SHIRLEY's Marriage Cert dated 1917 at Stoke Damerel his father is deceased and named as " Robert John " an obvious error on the part of the Vicar.
I am desperate to continue with my paternal line.
Sincerely,
Manxlass

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1891 England Census
about Mary Shirley
Name: Mary Shirley
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Saltash, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Saltash
Ecclesiastical parish: Saltash
Town: Saltash
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: St Germans
Sub-registration district: Saltash
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Shirley 37
Harry Shirley 12
Ethel Shirley 11
Albertha Shirley 8
Alfred Shirley 1

1901

1901 England Census
about Alfred Shirley
Name: Alfred Shirley
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Gender: Male
Where born: Saltash, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Antony
Ecclesiastical parish: Torpoint
Town: Torpoint
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Alfred and John ( aged 9) in Torpoint workhouse.

What is TS Simeon?

here is Mary in 1881, my best guess is that JWS was not on shore for the census' ...

1881 England Census
about Ethel Mary Shirley
Name: Ethel Mary Shirley
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Saltash, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Saltash
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Street Address: No 2 Fore Street
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: St Germans
Sub-registration district: Saltash
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Shirley 28
Lucy Shirley 5
Henry James Shirley 1
Ethel Mary Shirley
James Greet 44

Have you checked this John Shirley on 1911?

HOUSEHOLD SHIRLEY JOHN M 1859 52 Brentford Middlesex

Journeyman Labourer???? - are you sure you transcribed this correctly - I've never heard of anyone have to qualify to become a Labourer.

Thank you all for your swift replies, I have emailed you all individually.
Kind Regards,
Manxlass

Manxlass,

Please respond on this thread. Private emails mean we can't see your responses and can't offer help.

Rose

What happened to Alberta?

Rose

Hi Rambling Rose,
Alberta left Cornwall via Liverpool with Dr. Barnado's for Quebec, Canada on SS Vancouver 1897.
Briefly, she trained to become a Gen Dom and worked for a Farmer called Moses STEPHENS & family in Canada before moving 4 years later to Detroit, USA.
Here she worked for an Emmanuel BERGER ( a Corporate Lawyer ) his wife Sarah May BERGER & their children. Whilst here she met a Journeyman Tailor from Canada who was making the Winter Wardrobe for same family. She had an illegitimate child to him in 1906 whom she called May SHIRLEY. Alberta had her child adopted. Reason: No means of support. This child was luckily adopted by a very loving family and had her name changed. The child grew up and married and they did pretty well with a thriving business until the 1930's when it went pear-shaped .
I was put in contact with a Granddaughter of Alberta, via the adopted child. This person was looking for her " real " SHIRLEY family which happened to be mine:0)
We shared a great deal of info over 3 years, then my " new cousin " died very quickly and painfully of a degenerative Motor Neurone type of illness in Kalamazzoo.
I have now no contact with this family, as they were not interested in family history like Joanne was, so this MAY be the end? Fairly recently, Alberta was found again on USA Census and the Pilot site of Familysearch and had married a Charles KITCHEN, they had two children. So, now hopefully, the search resumes for family in Detroit :0)
Regards,
Carol

Hi Annielaurie,
John SHIRLEY was with the No 1 Battery, 10th Brigade Service No: 1599 at Kingston, Canada 1866 - 1867.
He joined from 5 Division Depot Brigade.
1867 - 1868 still with No 1 Battery ( Royal Artillery ), Kingston.
1867 - Nos 1; 2;3; & 7 Batteries embarked at Quebec on the Ship T.S. Simeon
As yet, I am unsure as to it's type but think it might have been a Troop Ship as it was used to take the Army/Royal Artillery from Fort Henry, Kingston used by British Troops to Gibralta after the Fort was handed back to the Canadians in 1867. ( The Fort is now a preserved Museum )
From 1867 - 1871 John Walter Shirley was stationed at Gibralta , then was sent with his new Unit called 10 Brigade, to Malta for a spell of 3 yrs. Eventually, they were sent to the UK where he was posted at Granby & Bulls Point, Devon, from 1874 - 1875. Then he was on Drakes Island, Devon from 1875 - 1876.
He was moved to Fort Staddon Plymouth & Dover. 1876 - 1877.
Posted on IOW at Sandown Fort 1877 - 1878.

NB. Between 1874 - 1879 somewhere/when he had met & married Mary GLANVILLE aka HOSKING ( her stepfather's surname ) and they had Lucy born 1876 in Saltash, Cornwall and Henry James born 1879 at Sandown, IOW. Both children were baptised on IOW.
I hope this makes sense to everyone?
Kindest Regards,
Carol

Dear mgnv,
I owe you an apology.
The information that I was given for John SHIRLEY's occ of Journeyman Labourer was in fact incorrect. Very Sorry.
He was a Jobbing Labourer, quite different, so I humbly stand corrected :0)
Kind Regards,
Carol

So when did John leave the army?

In 1881 Mary is listed as "wife of corporal RA".

Rose

He must have been around at the time of the census because Alberta and Robert would have been conceived around then.

What's his occupation on their certs?

Rose

Carol - no worries. Jobbing certainly fits better with what you had in mind.



For a general portal to Library & Archives Canada:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/index-e.html

We'll go direct to:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/index.html
where we can search the 1901 census for Moses Stephens and find:

1901 Census of Canada Page Information
District: ON NORTHUMBERLAND (East/Est) (#95)
Subdistrict: Seymour I-3 Page 8
Image: View the image with:
split screen: medium image large image
new window: medium large small MrSid
Images are from National Archives Web Site
Details: Schedule 1 Microfilm T-6485

38 82 Stephens Moses M Head M Jul 1840 60
flag39 82 Stephens Ennily F Wife M Jan 12 1859 42
40 82 Shirley Alberta F Domestic S Apr 8 1882 18
41 82 Stephens Lewis M Son S May 8 1866 34

One can click on, say, the split image link and view the original. It's part of the census of Seymour Township. On the prairies, a Twp is a 6m x 6m block of land - in Ontario, they're a bit bigger and less standardized.

Schedule 2 is for people, and schedule 2 for farms and buildings, so the address is on Scchedule 2. To access this schedule, we search geographically at:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1901/index-e.html

The search help link explains the various fields on the forms. The 2nd page of farms has the info for page 8 line 38, and shows the address as S Pt N Pt, [Lot] 13, Con[cesstion] 6 & 7. The farmhouse has 10 rooms.

OK, on the face of it, not overhelpful, but now go to:
http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/CountyAtlas/SearchMapframes.php

Northumberland Co has 60km of lakeshore on L Ontario, and runs 20-40km inland. We're interested in the area around Campbellford, abt 50km E of Peterborough. Clicking on Co 27 gets a county map, and Seymour Twp is in NE corner, so click on it, and get:
http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/CountyAtlas/images/maps/townshipmaps/nor-m-seymour.jpg
We can see the Concession #s along the top edge, and following the 6-7 boundary down just 3 lots south of Campbellford, we can see Moses SteVen's land. (Well, some of it - the census shows he owns 200 acre, a lot in town and 2 more dwelling houses - he has 5 barns and outbuildings too.)