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From the other thread, Sue posted:
Marriage. William Arthur Edwards March 1850, also listed as William Auther Edwards, both have the same reg number which is 3 54 and took place in Clerkenwell. I crossed referenced this with Sarah Spence and it looks likely to be yours.
Brit thought this might be the right marriage as freebmd was missing a wife, but in fact it isn't - there are 4 husbands and 4 wives. None of the wives is a Sarah or a Spence. There is a Sarah Spence marrying in that quarter but she is in Whitby.
There is also an Elizabeth Spence marrying in Clerkenwell, freebmd shows an equal number of males and females, and one of the males is Thomas Edwards, though as usual nothing to say one of the others isn't her husband. The ref for that is 3/57.
Just in case anyone goes hunting again down this route.
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There are 3 baptisms at St Columba, Haggerston:
Eliza age 6
Selina age 8
Henry age 10
children of William and Sarah Edwards,
56 Ely Place
Dec 15th 1868
This would place Henry's birth in 1858 rather than 1859.
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Who was the informant on the birth cert?
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PP, your last post gives the impression that all certificates have lies on them.....!
I suspect that there were more likely to be porkies told on marriages, especially made up father's names especially if one of the parties was illegitimate.
You also have to remember that until the latter part of the 1800's very many people were illiterate and were only able to answer the question posed by the registrar's clerk. They wouldn't necessarily have even understood the purpose behind the question, nor were any checks made as to the accuracy of the answer.
For a married woman, the husband was automatically assumed to be the father, unless proven otherwise. For unmarried mothers, no fathers name was given unless the father was prepared to confirm that he was so. Same actually applies today.
However none of this confirms that the person purporting to be the father actually was the father.
I would also caution against trying to assume there was an error just to make things fit better. I did this once and leaned the hard way.
You can only get so much info from the indexes. At some point you have to order the cert, even if this means confirming it is the wrong one.
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I had a similar situation.
My ancestor Johanna gave her maiden name as Gerrans on the first few birth certificates of her children, and Davey on the later ones.
For ages I was looking for 2 marriages & deaths , but it turned out she was illegitimate!
Her mother's name was Davey, and this is what she was baptised under. The father must have been around as there were 2 more children, and the kind vicar wrote the father's name in one of the other children's baptism record!
When she married under the name of Gerrans in 1844 she named her father on the certificate. However, he never married her mother, and was deceased by the 1841 census!
Could your Sarah Hodges have been born illegitimately to a Spence mother and Hodges father (or vice verse), and became confused with the phrasing when asked her "maiden" name, or possibly her "name before you married", like mine did?
I hope I explained that clearly enough!
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Just a point. Sarah may have married someone called Hodges before she married William.
My Gr Gr grandmother married at 14 in 1846 he died in 1847 then her son was born a month later. She remarried in 1851 age 18 and a half. Altogether she married 4 times so all things are possible.
Pat
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Thanks everyone for looking. It does seem as if there isn't any record of a marriage between Sarah Spence and William, that is why I think it is odd about the daughter Sarah marrying a George Spence. I know it is a long shot that Selina could be the daughter of Sarah and not her sister. I have just been thinking of all possibilities.I wonder if I sent for the birth certs of any of the others if it would give any more insight.
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For reference:
1851 England Census
Name: Catherine Edwards
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: St Leonard
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Household Members:
Name Age
William Edwards abt 1821 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Head Shoreditch, Middlesex - watch maker
Sarah Edwards abt 1823 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Wife Shoreditch, Middlesex
Sarah Edwards abt 1841 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
William Edwards abt 1847 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Son Shoreditch, Middlesex
Catherine Edwards abt 1849 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
1861 England Census about Catherine Edwards
Name: Catherine Edwards
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation: Watch Glass Maker
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: St Leonard
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 61
Household Members:
Name Age
William Edwards abt 1822 St Lukes Old St, Middlesex, England Head Shoreditch, Middlesex
Sarah Edwards abt 1828 St Lukes Old St, Middlesex, England Wife Shoreditch, Middlesex
William Edwards abt 1847 Islington, Middlesex, England Son Shoreditch, Middlesex
Catherine Edwards abt 1849 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
Jane Edwards abt 1853 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
Walter Edwards abt 1855 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Son Shoreditch, Middlesex
Henry Edwards abt 1859 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
Celina Edward abt 1860 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
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From other thread -
"I also have cert for birth of son Walter 1855 giving Sarah Hodges as his mother."
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www.genesreunited.co.za/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1184778 - yes, it is worth looking at.
Brit, was the other cert a younger or older sibling?
Ozi
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There is information on the other thread, so be careful when searching not to duplicate efforts.
Brit .... it might have been better to have posed this question on the other thread, then people could have seen what had been found.
sylvia
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Can somebody better than me find any of these people? I have searched long and hard and can't find anyone definite.
Brit, can you give more dates?
I haven't looked at your thread on the Records Office, is any of it of use.
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Yes, I agree, it is confusing and maddening!
Wm. and Sarah Hodges are married St Giles Cripplegate 26th Dec 1840 (I have cert).
Their first child is Sarah Charlotte 1841 who marries George Spence in 1859.
They have other children: William b1847
Catherine b 1849
Jane b. 1853
Walter b. 1855
Then there is a Henry b. 1859 (I cannot narrow his birth down to get a cert, I already have two wrong ones)
Selina b. 1860 whose birth cert. names Sarah Spence as her mother, and William Edwards as her father.
Eliza b. 1863
Adeline b. 1868.
In the time given for William to have remarried Sarah Spence there is no reference to the marriage that can be found.
I hope that is a bit more clear. Thanks for looking at my post.
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Hi Brit
Can you please clarify?
Selina Edwards b 1860 has mother Sarah Spence.
A sibling (can we know which one? Older or younger than Selina?) has mother Sarah Hodges. Unlikely to use a different maiden name.
William Edwards married Sarah Hodges. When?
You are looking for a marriage of William Hodges to Sarah Spence.
About when?
William Edwards and Sarah Hodges have a daughter Sarah in 1841.
No, I've given up doing it online, will have to write it out on paper and think.
See you later.
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Hi this is further to my post on the Records Office where an interesting point was brought up. Since then I have had another bright idea.
Would it have been possible for someone to give the wrong name for a father on a birth cert?
Selina Edwards born 1860 Shoreditch ...her birth cert says her mother was Sarah Spence. One of her siblings has Sarah Hodges as his mother on his cert.
I have found the marriage of Wiliam Edwards to Sarah Hodges but for after searching everywhere and getting help on the boards as well, I haven't been able to find any marriage for William to a Sarah Spence.
However: William and Sarah Hodges have a daughter Sarah in 1841. She later marries a George Spence in 1859. They have a daughter Sarah Sophia in 1860. On the 1861 they are all three together living in Southwark.
Could Selina have been their child? It seems strange as the information onthe birth cert definitely gives William as father's name, Edwards as her surname, and gives his occupation and address. But it is very odd that her mother is given as Sarah Spence.
Am I clutching at straws to solve this mystery? Any ideas from anyone please?
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