Genealogy Chat

It was definitely not for a passport.

She had moved 150 miles from her family, with her husband. She had left behind their only child, my husband's grandma, who seems to have been brought up by her grandparents. Two of her brothers moved with her and her husband. One committed suicide (chucked himself in the reservoir). The other brother went back home. I wonder if some comment was made by him at the time that they didn't share the same father - cos it now turns out that they didn't - or might not have done. They were all in business together (the business seems to have failed), so perhaps there were some arguments. Her husband then died, and her daughter came to live with her and married my husband's grandfather. Shortly after she (the great grandmother) adopted a baby boy. She was then age 52 and a widow. It seems very odd that a widow (with no money) should adopt a child at that age. The child was my husband's godfather. I never knew him, but I knew his wife. He was a diabetic and had both legs amputated. But he had a happy life.

So for whatever reason she wanted or needed her birth certificate. Perhaps it was to do with the adopted boy. Perhaps she needed evidence that she was his next of kin to agree to his amputations. But she never got it. I have got it now.

Just telling you this in case there might be reasons to get a birth cert in odd circumstances.

EDIT I only know all this cos I found some scribbled notes amongst my mother in laws papers, all about the adopted child (I don't think she knew about the suicide).

Thanks, will do.

I wonder why she got her birth cert? maybe she was applying for a passport? and why would you write your marriage date on your birth cert? funny that one of yours did the same!

Hi again Justine

Just to confirm that the two duff birth certificates for my hubby's g grandmother were both ordered years later - she was born 1855. The first cert was ordered about 1923, the second in 1930. They were both wrong. but both kept. And one had her marriage date written on it too.

I really would try the local register office and plead to them.

Thank you so much for your time in thinking about my problem. I've just written a long reply, but lost it.

The first birth cert was a cert ordered in 1935 and shows Herbert and Jane as parents.

I ordered a second from the GRO which shows exactly the same details.

If Agnes had this first cert in 1935 and the parents were incorrect then why would she keep it and write her marriage date on it? although Madmeg found two random certs in her relations details.

I'm wondering now if I should search for another Agnes born around the same time in the same area - as you say it's not uncommon for brothers to give their children the same name is it!!!

I think I will contact the registry office and tell them the whole story and see if they can help.

Any more ideas gratefully received - it's lovely to talk to people who are interested in this kind of thing - I usually do this on my own! ha ha

I forgot to ask.....
Did the later certificate that you ordered have the same birthdate as the older one?
The earlier one with the 'wrong' parents differed from the date shown at baptism.

Gwyn

Hi Justine

What a tricky one. First to say that amongst my late mother-in-laws papers I found a birth certificate for her grandmother. And then I found another one. Different. And finally I found a baptismal certificate. I fished around and discovered the baptismal certificate was the right person, the two birth certificates were rubbish.

BUT, you say you have a copy of the birth cert of Agnes Milner born 6 July 1883, showing parents Herbert Milner and Jane nee Cozens.

But when she married, she gave her father's name as Alfred William.

She was baptised with parents Alfred and Agnes.

Frist question - did you get the birth certificate from the GRO? Such certificates are transcribed from data given to them by the local records offices and although the certificate that the GRO sends to you LOOKS authentic, it is not. Far better to contact the local records office of the area that she was born in, and get the certificate from them. That will be a copy of the original certificate issued at birth.

So I would contact the office that now covers St Pancras and tell them you have already paid for this certificate from the GRO and are suprised at the parents it gives. Be very nice to them, or it will cost you another £7 for another certificate that might not tell you anything different. Express your concern and amazement at the parents, cos you "believed" they should be Alfred William and Agnes, as were the parents of other children whose certificates you have already purchased. Point out (nicely) that you have already spent a lot of money on this.

With a bit of luck, the St Pancras office will ring you up and say "we are not allowed to give such information without you paying the statutory fee of £7, but just off the record, your "belief" is correct". Bingo!

On the other hand, two brothers can marry two sisters, I have it in my own family - twice - and the same-named child can be the child of two or three different siblings all born around the same time.

But it seems odd that you cannot find Herbert and Jane. So it might be that they weren't called that. Or weren't known by those names, maybe they were middle names and they later dropped them. All far-fetched, but not impossible.

I'd try contacting St Pancras Reg District and see if they can do anything. I'd recommend an email, cos then they have the choice of ringing you or emailing, and if they give info over the phone, they can still email you and say they can't give the info without you paying the fee. If you see what I mean.

Maddening, isn't it?

I have a copy of an 1846 birth certificate for my great grandmother, bought to confirm her mother's surname.

....... but no
It showed that to be GREEN...!....What?

I still think it's the correct certificate, but no idea where they got that surname, while great grandmother's brother's shows the correct one.

I'll have a ponder on your problem.....

Gwyn

Thanks for your replies!

Yes this is the baptism record I found too, which appears to confirm the parents are Alfred and Agnes.

I ordered another birth cert recently hoping the parents would be Alfred and Agnes and there had been a mix up when it was issued, but it still came back Herbert and Jane!

I want Alfred and Agnes to be the parents!!!! but the birth cert can't be wrong, can it?

I just had another thought.....

Maybe when the copy certificate was applied for, some incorrect details were entered
eg.
Part of the information was copied, then the transcriber misread a line, perhaps inserting information from the line above or below the correct entry in the ledger.

Doesn't explain why it was kept, but I wonder if it's worth checking details with the issuing office?


Gwyn

Could they be cousins...?

There is a baptism record online

Name: Agnes Elizabeth Milner
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 16 Jul 1883
Father's Name: Alfred William Milner
Mother's Name: Agnes Milner
Parish: St Pancras Parish Church
Borough: Camden
County: Middlesex

There is a date of birth given as >>>> 30 June 1883.<<<<
The address is 3 Margaret Row and occupation of her father is Ostler.

Gwyn

Agnes Milner born 6/7/1883, 3 Margaret Row, St Pancras - birth cert records Herbert (Horsekeeper) and Jane (Nee Cozens) as parents

Parents who "raised " her? were Alfred William Milner (Horsekeeper) and Agnes Milner (not Sarah as I previously said, sorry, it's late!) nee Woods.

I have traced census info and have many birth and marriage certs for the family.

I haven't however looked at immigration records - maybe Herbert and Jane moved abroad?? Thanks for that idea!!!

Would you mind telling us your grandmother's name and where/when she was born? Might help focus us a bit (or drive us over the edge perhaps!!)
Jan

Thanks for your reply Jan.

I thought she may have been adopted by Alfred and Agnes, maybe a cousins child or another close relation??

but I can't find Herbert and Jane anywhere and she is recorded as being born in the same place as her sister Beatrice a couple of years later. I have a photo of my great grandmother with Beatrice and they are so alike they look like twins.

The birth cert I have is a copy passed down from my great grandmother after her death. She got this copy cert in 1932 for some reason and on the bottom of it was written in pencil the date of her marriage. Surely she wouldn't have kept it if it did have the wrong details on it.

It's driving me mad, please keep thinking!!!! ha ha

Could she have been given to Alfred and Sarah to be raised?

Could Herbert and Jane have emmigrated and felt it best to leave her with 'famiily' until they were settled?

Is there an unmarried Jane in the family who lied & pretended to be married when she registered the birth - assuming she was the one who did?

If you give dob's and places....in addition to 3 Margaret Row....and which census you already have, someone may be able to caste a fresh eye.

edit ****
Hang on! Could there be 2 children with the same name? In other words, the wrong birth cert?****

That's a good possibility - but..... it still doesn't explain why she can't find a Herbert and Jane anywhere.

Names were often recorded incorrectly but I must say this is quite a bit different isn't it. The first thing that springs to mind is that she isn't their daughter but that of a relative, presumably a sibling, but for this to be so 2 brothers had to marry 2 sisters. And you can't find a marriage.

Very odd! Need a think.

Hang on! Could there be 2 children with the same name? In other words, the wrong birth cert?

Jan

I need some help with a bit of a problem!!

When my great grandmother married her father was recorded as Alfred William Milner. I found him on the census, the address matched and he lived with his wife Agnes.

I was then given a copy of my great grandmothers birth certificate which shows her parents to be Herbert and Jane Milner and she was born at 3 Margaret Row.

I then ordered some birth certificates for the other children of Alfred William and Agnes and their address was also 3 Margaret Row.

I then found the baptism record for my great grandmother and her parents are recorded as Alfred William and Agnes, not long after her birth.

So you can see why I might think her parents have been recorded incorrectly on her birth certifcate. Can this happen, is this possible?

I have also been unable to find Herbert and Jane anywhere! no marriage or death or census or anything.

Any ideas??? Please help!!!